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CARLOZ

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Gay Bullying Deaths and Religion: Are Believers the Problem or the Solution?

News Type: Opinion — Seeded on Fri Oct 8, 2010 5:03 AM EDT
Article Source: Politics Daily
religion, gay, human-rights, conservatives, civil-rights, new-jersey, liberals, lesbian, hate, homosexual, gay-rights, lgbt, glbt, homophobia, religious-right, bullying, intolerance, hate-crime, hate-crimes, rutgers, queer, jim-demint, moderates, suicides, focus-on-the-family, usnews, heterosexism, homosexual-rights, queer-rights, tyler-clementi, heterosexist, clementi, tyler-clementi-suicide, lesbia-rights
Seeded by Carloz
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...[Tyler] Clementi's death last month, following suicides by several other homosexual teens in recent weeks, has also prompted a sharp debate in religious communities, a discussion that includes an unusual degree of soul-searching in addition to the more typical defensiveness.

Christian denominations, where homosexuality is often condemned in uncompromising terms and where battling gay rights can be a legislative priority, have been particularly roiled by the debate, with traditionalists who tend to lead the charge against homosexuality posing some of the toughest questions for their own members.

"Are we complicit?" was the title of a provocative blog post on Tuesday at Mirror of Justice, a Catholic legal affairs site.

The author of that column, Russell Powell, an associate law professor at Seattle University School of Law, wrote: "In the Church's attempt to assert its commitment to heterosexual marriage and to maintain that homosexuality is a moral disorder, does it help to create a cultural climate that tacitly legitimizes the stigmatization of gay young people?"

Powell wrote that the suicides have prompted him "to reconsider the possible benefits of anti-bullying legislation even if it were to serve a largely symbolic function."

Warren Throckmorton, a psychology professor at Grove City College in Pennsylvania and a "traditional evangelical" known for counseling homosexuals to overcome their same-sex impulses, also wrote that the recent suicides should help convince Christian conservatives to drop their opposition to anti-bullying laws that list sexual orientation as a category.

"Christians need not worry about violating their faith when schools insist on fair and respectful treatment for all," Throckmorton wrote at CNN's Belief Blog. "Anti-gay name-calling is hurtful to all students. Refusing to name the problem can create the illusion that such name-calling is acceptable."

On Wednesday, Exodus International, a controversial Christian group that tries to help "liberate" homosexuals from same-sex attractions, announced it would stop sponsoring an annual event that encourages school students to "counter the promotion of homosexual behavior." The reason, Exodus head Alan Chambers told CNN, is because "the recent attention to bullying helped us realize that we need to equip kids to live out biblical tolerance and grace while treating their neighbors as they'd like to be treated, whether they agree with them or not."

Others Christian leaders adopted a more traditional "hate the sin, love the sinner" attitude. But they still reproached their fellow believers for not showing nearly enough of the latter when it comes to gays and lesbians.

NOTE: Observe the Newsvine Code of Honor when commenting. Thanks

Are Anti-Gay Christians Responsible for the Suicide Trend?Friendly AtheistFri Oct 840
It Gets Better: Fighting to Save Gay Teens, One Video at a TimePolitics DailyFri Oct 82
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  • Public Discussion (61)
Carloz

...Focus on the Family's campaign against the bullying legislation coincided with the launch of a new campaign by the group, called "True Tolerance," which aims to fight bullying policies that protect gays by claiming they seek to "evade parental rights" and "circumvent traditional marriage laws."

Within weeks of the campaign's launch, the bullying suicides of Clementi and the others were national news.

But Focus on the Family rejects any connection between its rhetoric and bullying or teen suicides, and they and other Christian lobbies say they won't alter their political efforts because of the recent deaths.

[...]

More problematic may be the run-of-the-mill Christian discourse that often demeans gays, such as the assertion last week by Sen. Jim DeMint -- a conservative Republican and Tea Party leader from South Carolina -- who told a church audience that homosexuals (and single women who sleep with their boyfriends) should be barred from teaching positions.

It's not all believers that are the problem, because in fact there are many Gay and Lesbian believers -- it's people who are intolerant, fearful and hateful, regardless of whether they believe or not. In addition, there are some organized religions that fuel this intolerance, fear and hate, and at least it is good to see some representatives of some of these organizations looking at what their role has been in this. The bottom line IMO is there is no religious reason why bullying should be tolerated, and why legislative efforts to thwart bullying should be resisted.

P.S. Observe the Newsvine Code of Honor when commenting. Thanks

  • 7 votes
#1 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 5:12 AM EDT
Carloz

in fact there are many Gay and Lesbian believers

That should have been: "in fact there are Gay and Lesbian believers, as well as many tolerant heterosexual believers."

  • 6 votes
#1.1 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 5:18 AM EDT
Andrea1986NYC

Carloz: "at least it is good to see some representatives of some of these organizations looking at what their role has been in this".

Hopefully such responses will continue. It is past time for this hypocrisy to end.

  • 6 votes
#1.2 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 7:05 AM EDT
Rank on Rank

It wasn't Christians who put Tyler Clementi on Youtube which precipitated his suicide. It was probably young tolerant heterosexuals who thought their prank would be funny and fun.

  • 7 votes
#1.3 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 7:55 AM EDT
ERich-356044

Rank on Rank,

Sorry, I must disagree with you. You can't presume to think the two kids who put the video on Youtube were thinking/doing at the time.

You can ask what got those two kids to that point. Over the last few years, we have seen anti-gay legislation (prop 8 in CA) campaigns as well as misinformative articles about 'the abnormal gay behavior' excalate. I even wrote about my frustrations of using the Bible as an excuse to hate homosexuality. The opposition has come from religious people. They talk about god and abominations ... hate filled speeches or blogs. Maybe the two kids didn't go to church, they certainly have been exposed to the hate from religious leaders. Think of Pat Robertson and the 700 club.... he makes many many derragatory remarks against gays. How about the so-called chrisian politicians making comments...

I am encouraged that a few christian leaders are willing to step back and say that this is wrong.... that no matter what, God's love is more important, and bullying is unacceptable.

Thanks for posting this Carloz!

  • 6 votes
#1.4 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 8:39 AM EDT
Rank on Rank

ERich,

Let me see if I understand you: You're saying that I can't say something is 'probable', when it is. But you can say something is a 'certainty', when it isn't.

"Maybe the two kids didn't go to church, they certainly have been exposed to the hate from religious leaders."

Have you talked to these young people? Have you read or seen interviewers where they admitted to the influences you project upon them? Otherwise I don't see how you can make that statement with any degree of certainty.

There are many young people in America who don't watch religious programming especially in these days of increasing atheism and satanism. Are you saying that young people in question put the video on Youtube because Pat Robertson told them to?

  • 3 votes
#1.5 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 9:45 AM EDT
GraysonS

Have you talked to these young people? Have you read or seen interviewers where they admitted to the influences you project upon them? Otherwise I don't see how you can make that statement with any degree of certainty.

It is fair to say that young Americans with the media savvy to know how to produce a live web-cast have been exposed to Christian anti-homosexual bias in American media. It is a statistical certainty. Particularly if such people possess a high-school, American education which, as American college students, one can safely assume that these kids did.

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 10:00 AM EDT
Rank on Rank

It is fair to say. . .

No it's not!

. . .one can safely assume that these kids did.

But only if one has an overriding anti-Christian bias or is a same-sex marriage proponent blinded by his or her own agenda.

With the relatively small number of Christian stations available compared to every other kind of secular media, you call it a "statistical certainty" that they may have been influenced by imaginary non existent christian anti gay bullying incitements to put a Gay sex on Youtube?

No.

  • 2 votes
#1.7 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 3:00 PM EDT
Kris O.

I make a habit out of disagreeing with Rank on Rank, but I have to agree with him here. The kids probably thought it'd be hilarious. Kids are retarded, and they have a terrible track record when it comes to considering the consequences of their actions.

  • 3 votes
#1.8 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 3:00 PM EDT
GraysonS

No it's not!

Excuse me? Please describe how you think an American can reach adult-hood, while knowing how to operate a computer, without being exposed to Christian bigotry. Please give it a shot. They were locked in a dungeon with no exposure to television, teachers, or any people whatsoever, except the internet, which never gave them the chance to read anything but pokemon tutorials?

I make a habit out of disagreeing with Rank on Rank, but I have to agree with him here.

I'm not sure why you think that would persuade any reasonable human being. Particularly an American one with a television and an internet connection.


  • 5 votes
#1.9 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 3:27 PM EDT
ERich-356044

Rank,

Have you been exposed to hateful remarks against gays?

Has anyone you know ever said to another "fag" as a joke? If so, chances are the two kids have as well.

Maybe I shouldn't have said the word certainly, but to dismiss what they did as a prank is also assuming something.

  • 3 votes
#1.10 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 3:40 PM EDT
GraysonS

Has anyone you know ever said to another "fag" as a joke?

Or do you know what it means? Then yup--you've been exposed to Christian bigotry.

  • 3 votes
#1.11 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 4:01 PM EDT
Rank on Rank

Have you been exposed to hateful remarks against gays?

Or do you know what it means? Then yup--you've been exposed to Christian bigotry.

ERich and GraysonS,

So you two are blaming Christianity for ALL AntiGay pranks, rhetoric, insults, bullying and bashing that has ever taken place even those crimes committed by non Christians in our secular culture??? Talk about bigotry! You're very good at making others the problem aren't you GraysonS?

ERich, I'm not unsympathetic, I just don't think that Christianity was behind those kids' stunt.

I make a habit out of disagreeing with Rank on Rank, but I have to agree with him here.

Thank you Kris O for your impartial judgment and good sense.

  • 1 vote
#1.12 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 4:25 PM EDT
GraysonS

So you two are blaming Christianity for ALL AntiGay rhetoric, insults, bullying and bashing that has ever taken place even those crimes committed by non Christians in our secular culture??? .

Nope. Not all of it. Just all of it in the USA. And, yup, even that by non-Christians.

Yes--it's the fault of you and people like you. Absolutely.

  • 6 votes
#1.13 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 4:27 PM EDT
StevG-144

What this branch of christians are doing is wrapping themselves in religion to hide their bigotry, in what they claim is in God's name. To me religion represents Gods message, of love, tolerence, forgiveness, and doing for others, not doing it, to others.

  • 5 votes
#1.14 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 5:17 PM EDT
Kris O.

I make a habit out of disagreeing with Rank on Rank, but I have to agree with him here.

I'm not sure why you think that would persuade any reasonable human being. Particularly an American one with a television and an internet connection.

You probably aren't sure why, because that wasn't the intent of the statement. The remark was made to disassociate the content of my post from a religious point of view. Unfortunately, there is no consolation prize.

Maybe I shouldn't have said the word certainly, but to dismiss what they did as a prank is also assuming something.

Maybe I've been reading the wrong news articles, but I haven't seen anything that suggests that anti-gay Christian beliefs had anything to do with the kids and the YouTube video. What I have read so far, even went so far as to claim that they would have done the same thing if their buddy had been nailing a girl. Hence, they're just stupid kids, doing stupid things.

  • 2 votes
#1.15 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 5:36 PM EDT
Rank on Rank

Maybe I've been reading the wrong news articles, but I haven't seen anything that suggests that anti-gay Christian beliefs had anything to do with the kids and the YouTube video. What I have read so far, even went so far as to claim that they would have done the same thing if their buddy had been nailing a girl. Hence, they're just stupid kids, doing stupid things.

Kris O.

GOD bless you for being impartial!

  • 2 votes
#1.16 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 7:31 PM EDT
pjw-708550

As a member of the gay community, I think that the word Christianity has been used a bit too broadly in some comments. In my part of Va., there are a lot of very supportive christians, then there are the evangelical/born again christians that think that we who are gay are somehow sub-human. I think that distinction needs to be made. I don't think anyone here is saying that all christians are 'gay haters', but the evangelical branch is giving the rest of christianity a bad name. I think it was Ghandi that said: I don't hate your Christ, I hate your christians. He had a point.

Hi! E, hope all is well and that school is going well.

  • 4 votes
#1.17 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 10:20 AM EDT
Marine-Sgt

total misquote of ghandi

#1.18 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 12:06 AM EDT
Rosie-2429567

IN REPLY TO:

Carloz

It's not all believers that are the problem, because in fact there are many Gay and Lesbian believers -- it's people who are intolerant, fearful and hateful, regardless of whether they believe or not. In addition

***************************************************************

But what are they saying they BELIEVE IN? It can not be God or the Bible because HIS HOLY WORD has too many verses that clearly state they are wrong.

from http://carm.org/christianity-and-homosexuality

What does the Bible say concerning Homosexuality?

All Christians should already know these verses from God's Holy Word.

The Bible, as God's word, reveals God's moral character and it shapes the morality of the Christian. The Bible has much to say about homosexuality:

  1. Lev. 18:22 , "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
  1. Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them."
  1. 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,1 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
  1. Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

I am constantly amazed at how many times these verses are ignored. If someone claims to be a Christian or a BELIEVER how can they pick and choose only the verses that "make them fee warm and fuzzy" and ignore ALL others.

PLEASE, PLEASE: Anyone claiming to believe in God needs to read HIS HOLY INSPIRED WORD.

From: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0406scripture.asp

Christ’s use of Scripture

As Louis Gaussen has asserted, ‘We are not afraid to say it: when we hear the Son of God quote the Scriptures, every thing is said, in our view, on their divine inspiration—we need no further testimony. All the declarations of the Bible are, no doubt, equally divine; but this example of the Savior of the world has settled the question for us at once. This proof requires neither long nor learned researches; it is grasped by the hand of a child as powerfully as by that of a doctor. Should any doubt, then, assail your soul let it behold Him in the presence of the Scriptures!’1

1. He knew the Scriptures thoroughly, even to words and verb tenses. He obviously had either memorized vast portions or knew it instinctively: John 7:15.2

2. He believed every word of Scripture. All the prophecies concerning Himself were fulfilled,3 and He believed beforehand they would be.4

3. He believed the Old Testament was historical fact. This is very clear, even though from the Creation (cf. Genesis 2:24 and Matthew 19:4, 5) onward, much of what He believed has long been under fire by critics, as being mere fiction. Some examples of historical facts:

    • Luke 11:51—Abel was a real individual
    • Matthew 24:37–39—Noah and the flood (Luke 17:26, 27)
    • John 8:56–58—Abraham
    • Matthew 10:15; 11:23, 24 (Luke 10:12)—Sodom and Gomorrah
    • Luke 17:28–32—Lot (and wife!)
    • Matthew 8:11—Isaac and Jacob (Luke 13:28)
    • John 6:31, 49, 58—Manna
    • John 3:14—Serpent
    • Matthew 12:39–41—Jonah (vs. 42—Sheba)
    • Matthew 24:15—Daniel and Isaiah

4. He believed the books were written by the men whose names they bear:

  • Moses wrote the Pentateuch (Torah): Matthew 19:7, 8; Mark 7:10, 12:26 (‘Book of Moses’—the Torah); Luke 5:14; 16:29,31; 24:27, 44 (‘Christ’s Canon’); John 1:17; 5:45, 46; 7:19; (‘The Law [Torah] was given by Moses; Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.’)5
  • Isaiah wrote ‘both’ Isaiah’s: Mark 7:6–13; John 12:37–41 [Ed. note: Liberals claim that Isaiah 40-66 was composed after the fall of Jerusalem by another writer they call ‘Deutero-Isaiah’. The only real ‘reason’ for their claim is that a straightforward dating would mean that predictive prophecy was possible, and liberals have decreed a priori that knowledge of the future is impossible (like miracles in general). Thus these portions must have been written after the events. However, there is nothing in the text itself to hint of a different author. See http://www.tektonics.org/gk/isaiahdefense.html">The Unity of Isaiah . In fact, even the Dead Sea Isaiah Scroll was a seamless unity. But as Dr Livingston said, since Jesus affirmed the unity of Isaiah, the deutero-Isaiah theory is just not an option for anyone calling himself a follower of Christ.]
  • Jonah wrote Jonah: Matthew 12:39–41
  • Daniel wrote Daniel: Matthew 24:15

5. He believed the Old Testament was spoken by God Himself, or written by the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, even though the pen was held by men: Matthew 19:4, 5; 22:31, 32, 43; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37.

6. He believed Scripture was more powerful than His miracles: Luke 16:29, 31.

7. He actually quoted it in overthrowing Satan! The O.T. Scriptures were the arbiter in every dispute: Matthew 4; Luke 16:29, 31.

8. He quoted Scripture as the basis for his own teaching. His ethics were the same as what we find already written in Scripture: Matthew 7:12; 19:18, 19; 22:40; Mark 7:9, 13; 10:19; 12:24, 29–31; Luke 18:20.

9. He warned against replacing it with something else, or adding or subtracting from it. The Jewish leaders in His day had added to it with their Oral Traditions: Matthew 5:17; 15:1–9; 22:29; (cf. 5:43, 44); Mark. 7:1–12. (Destroying faith in the Bible as God’s Word will open the door today to a ‘new’ Tradition.)

10. He will judge all men in the last day, as Messiah and King, on the basis of His infallible Word committed to writing by fallible men, guided by the infallible Holy Spirit: Matthew 25:31; John 5:22, 27; 12:48; Romans 2:16.

11. He made provision for the New Testament (B’rit Hadashah) by sending the Holy Spirit (the Ruach HaKodesh). We must note that He Himself never wrote one word of Scripture although He is the Word of God Himself (the living Torah in flesh and blood, see John, chapter 1). He committed the task of all writing of the Word of God to fallible men—guided by the infallible Holy Spirit. The apostles’ words had the same authority as Christ’s: Matthew 10:14, 15; Luke 10:16; John 13:20; 14:22; 15:26, 27; 16:12–14.

12. He not only was not jealous of the attention men paid to the Bible (denounced as ‘bibliolatry’ by some), He reviled them for their ignorance of it: Matthew 22:29; Mark 12:24.

13. Nor did Jesus worship Scripture. He honored it—even though written by men.

The above leaves no room but to conclude that our Lord Jesus Christ considered the canon of Scripture as God’s Word, written by the hand of men.

Although some religious leaders profess to accept Scripture as ‘God’s Word,’ their low view of ‘inspiration’ belies the fact. They believe and teach that Scripture is, to a very significant degree, man’s word. Many of their statements are in essential disagreement with those of Jesus Christ. From the evidence of their books, we conclude that some Christian leaders are opposite to Christ in His regard for the authority, the inspiration, and the inerrancy of Scripture.

And now, the most important point.

III. Jesus Christ was subject to Scripture

Jesus obeyed the Word of God, not man. He was subject to it. If some leaders’ view of inspiration were true, Jesus was subject to an errant, rather casually thrown-together ‘Word of Man.’ Jesus would have been subject, then, to the will of man, not the will of God.

However, in all the details of His acts of redemption, Jesus was subject to Scripture as God’s Word. He obeyed it. It was His authority, the rule by which He lived. He came to do God’s will, not His own, and not man’s. Note how all of His life He did things because they were written—as if God had directly commanded. He fulfilled Old Testament prophecies about Himself. The passages are found all over the Old Testament. We cite here only a very few quoted in the New Testament: Matthew 11:10; 26:24, 53–56; Mark 9:12, 13; Luke 4:17–21; 18:31–33; 22:37; 24:44–47.

He Himself is the Word of God. All the words from His lips were the Word of God. (John 3:34). If He had desired, He could have written a new set of rules and they would have been the Word of God. But, He did not. He followed without question the Bible already penned by men.

This is the sensible thing for every believer to do. May all who read this adopt Jesus’ attitude and become subject both to Him as Living Word (living Torah) and to the Bible as the infallible, written Word of God.

***********************************************

IF homosexuals cannot accept these scriptures inspired by God then they have a BIG problem.

  • 1 vote
#1.19 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 2:24 AM EDT
Jim420

I cab't believe how many faithful fall for the above man perverted messages from God

none of your above citations from the bible refer to gays and lesbians.

levicus, the word homosexual was not in the bible, it is a modern word. the original text " man shall not lie as with a woman" refers to the prior rules and laws about male sex with female relatives, also applys to females with male relatives. (as with a woman)

and similar perversions anywhere in the bible that you see the word homosexual.. there was no term for gays in ancient hebrew, when the bible was written.

these verses were perverted by KING JAMES, because of his own homosexulity and repression, even though he had an affair with his stable boy... (the original brokeback mtn)

if Christians continue to propagate these perversions to Gods work. then they have a bigger problem than gays reading the bible with their hearts, and learning, God created gays in His own image, and that there is no sin in loving thy fellow man. *or woman)

this is the only interpretation possible for any true believer that reads the bible with his open heart, and not with a closed predujued mind

  • 3 votes
#1.20 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 10:19 AM EDT
Jim420

9. He warned against replacing it with something else -0- why you must read with your heart as translating from one language to another does this. especially ancient ones such as hebrew.

( the word "hello" translated to hawaiian, and back to english come back as "goodbye" )

5. He believed the Old Testament was spoken by God Himself, or written by the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, even though the pen was held by men: -0- and why reading the "ink" you get the meaning of the man holding the pen, you must read with your heart to get the word of GOD

being raised Christian, I prayed for many nights because people such as you have minds that are filled with the words of the devil, and spread these lies onto gays with hate and contempt, GOD loves all his children, and his words may ring true for you. but are not the message for those whose shoes you have never seen, much less walked in.

I pray for your soul. and that God opens your heart to your misconceptions of his words

  • 3 votes
#1.21 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 10:28 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

Jim -

I can understand where you are coming from. To be a follower of Christ is to love all people even the sinners. For Christ loved me in spite of my sin. But to say that homosexuality is not a sin is a lie. People always quick to bring up the fact that the word homosexual is not in the bible. That is very true the first record use of the word 'homosexual " was not until 1892. It is a new word, that was not existent in any of the ancient languages of the bible.

We are by no means to hate anyone but we are also by no means to excuse sin. I am a sinner I and am humbled day by day of that fact. But I am also redeemed in the blood of Christ, and by the power of the Holy Spirit am convicted of that sin and given the strength to walk in righteousness. If one continues to walk in sin with no repentance then, we have to ask if they really walk wiht Christ. For as scripture teaches we become a new creature no longer slaves to sin but slaves to Christ. That we shall have be born agian transformed by a renewing of the mind. That is what the power of the gospel is all about the changing of herats and minds abd reconciling our broken relationship with the Father.

  • 2 votes
#1.22 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 11:06 AM EDT
Jim420

that homosexuality is not a sin is a lie

you mis-typed that. you meant to say homosexuality is a sin, is a lie.. as I pointed out earlier, but that's ok, we all make mistakes.. I admit I am human and have sin.

just my homosexuality, is not one of my sins. now if you are married to a woman, it might be, just as if I lusted for a woman, that would be a sin, going against how God created me.

to be a follower of Christ. you don't impose what God said onto you, onto others.

I KNOW I walk with Christ, or should I say, have been carried by Christ during a coma, with 5% chance of living, my nurses told me, after I awoke on the 3rd day. that when my minister held my hand and prayed, my vitals went to normal, ( I say those were Christs vitals, not mine )

and calling good christian Gays sinners, is a sin ( bearing false witness )

  • 3 votes
#1.23 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 12:23 PM EDT
TruettCollins

Lev. 18:22

u-ath – zkr la thshkb mshkbi ashe thobe eau

and-with man not you-shall-lie-down beds-of woman abhorrence she

Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it (is) abomination

Lev. 20:13

u-aish ashr ishkb ath – zkr mshkbi ashe tuobe oshu shi-em muth

and-man who he–is-lying-down with male beds-of woman abhorrence they-did two-of them to-be-put-to-death.

That being said these old Testament laws were written for the Hebrews and no longer apply to us under the new covenant of Grace. But in the new testament we have scriptures that do apply to us in our modern era.

1 Cor. 6:9-10

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

Nor thiefs, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

E ouk iodate hoti adikoi basileian theou ou kiEronomEsousin mE planasthe oute

pornoi oute eidOlolatrai oute moichoi oute malakoi oute arsenokoitai

oute kleptai oute pleonektai oute methusoi ou loidoroi ouch harpages basileian.

OR NOT YE-HAVE-PERCEVED (ye are aware) that UN-JUST (unjust ones) KINdom OF-God NOT SHALL-BE-tenanING (shall not be enjoying the allotment of) NO BE-beING-strayed (be ye being deceived) NOT-BESIDES (neither) paramours NOT-BESIDES (nor) ALDULTERers NOT-BESIDES (nor) softones (catamites) NOT-BESIDES (nor) sodomites.

NOT-BESIDES (nor) thieves NOT-BESIDES (nor) MORE-HAVers (greedy-ones) NOT-BESIDES (NOR) DRUNKards NOT say-SPEARers (revilers) NOT SNACHers (extortioners) KINGdom

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

Nor thiefs, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Note the list, this is why I have trouble with people who attack the homosexual act more than the other things listed, being a drunkard, thief, or even greedy is listed right along with it. Where is the outcry agsint these things also.

Rom. 1:26-28

Dia touto paredOken autous ho theos eis pathE atiminas hai te gar theEleiai outOn metEllaxan tEn puskiEn chrEsin eis tEn para phusin

homoisOs te kai hoi arsenes aphentes tEn phusikEn chrEsin tEs thEleias exekauthEsan en tE orexei autOn eis allElous arsenes en arsesin tEn aschEmosunEn katergazomeoni kai tEn antimisthian hEn edei tEs planEs autOn en heautois apolambanontes

THRU (because-of) this BESIDES-GIVES (gives-over) them THE God EMOTIONS (passions) OF-UN-VALUE (of-dishonor) THE BESIDES for females OF-them after-CHANGE (alter) THE natural USing (use) INTO THE BESIDES nature.

LIKE-AS (likewise) BESIDES AND (also) THE MALES FROM-LETTING (leaving) THE natural USing (use) OF-THE female WER-OUT-BURNED (were-inflamed) IN THE craving OF-them INTO one-another MALES IN MALES THE indecency DOWN-ACTING effecting AND THE INSTEAD-HIER (retribution) WHICH WAS-BINDING (must-be OF-THE STRAYing (deception OF-them IN selves (themselves) FROM-GETTING (getting-back).

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

  • 1 vote
#1.24 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 3:36 PM EDT
Jim420

thanks for posting these, just read them, I see nothing in them that refers to me loving another guy..

and that's reading them with my brain, my heart backs this up.

only a crazy person would see the above bible references as applying to the modern gay sexual relationship.. and even you pointed, the ones that might, ( leviticus ) no longer apply

proof positive, that homosexuality is not a sin.

thanks again truett. for posting the truth about the bible, without misintrerpretations that bias the reader.

why do perverts see the "natural leaving of woman" as gay sex, sounds like a staight guy cheating online with porn while his wife is alone in bed..

or maybe that is the guilt they feel? hard to say, since being gay, the above quotes don't refer to me at all. truett, you quote them, maybe it has to do with your personal salvation and repressed sexuality?? I hope these comfort you in your need.

but really ask any gay christian, and you will learn, these don't refer to gays as the exist today

  • 3 votes
#1.25 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 5:27 PM EDT
Jim420

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

Nor thiefs, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

notice that gay sex is not in corintians yet you include it in your summary of corintians

and romans.. only says the natural use of women, that would be just about every woman that goes to work, instead of being a faithful wife,.

since gay sex is not literally written in the bible, it is very wrong to imply that is metaphorically is there, because then you distort the true and original meaning of Gods message.. each soul must read and learn on his own, and not let a pope, tell him what it says... nor let any other soul tell you what it says.

I cant read the bible for you, i can only tell you, your reading it for me, is incorrect.

  • 3 votes
#1.26 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 5:36 PM EDT
TruettCollins

Sex not in Corintians?

Fornicators: those who fornicate:
Fornicate: to have sexual intercourse outside marriage.

adulterers: those who commit adultery.

Adultery: a married person who has sex with someone who is not their husband or wife

Effeminate: . an effeminate man looks, behaves, or speaks like a woman.

And you miss that the direct translation of the word we use as “And abusers of themselves with mankind” is sodomite.

You put together the rest of the bible which explains what God accepts as the proper place of sex and take your little part of the verse together with the rest you see that it is talking about not only homosexuality, but lesbianism.

for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly

  • 1 vote
#1.27 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 6:07 PM EDT
Rosie-2429567

IN REPLY TO:

Jim420

thanks for posting these, just read them, I see nothing in them that refers to me loving another guy..

********************************************************************

1 Cor. 6:9-10

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate,

(I am pretty sure EFFEMINATE is referring to you and your partner)

nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

Nor thiefs, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

*************************************************************

If you don't care about going to Heaven, EVER, then I guess that this verse could mean NOTHING to you.

ENJOY ETERNITY.

  • 1 vote
#1.28 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 7:49 PM EDT
Carloz

LOL! I love how fundamentalists selectively quote the Bible, while ignoring other passages:

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)

"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)

Every woman who prays or speaks what God has revealed and has her head uncovered while she speaks dishonors the one who has authority over her. She is like the woman who has her head shaved. (1 Corinthians 11:5)

Let women keep quiet in the churches: for it is not right for them to be talking; but let them be under control, as it says in the law. (1 Corinthians 14:34)

Rosie, I hope you keep your mouth closed and your head covered in church, and that you never eat shellfish, nor wear clothes made of two kinds of material. If not, according to the bible you're an abomination.

  • 3 votes
#1.29 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 8:33 PM EDT
Jim420

(I am pretty sure EFFEMINATE is referring to you and your partner)

sorry no, I like "butch" men, if I wanted Efffeminate, I'd date women, I used to work for a lumberyart, and my parter was a construction worker,

as for sodomy, we currently used that to refer to anal sex, which is not what is being refered to in the bible, sodomites were the residents of the ancient city of sodom, and yes sodomy was one of their accepted activites, but just a small part of their behavior along with gommoral. really I though you holy rollers would know this.. anyways.

not all gays practice sodomy, many are just into oral copulation and mutual masterbation.... and their are celebate gay relaionships also, particularly when one ot the couple is dying from AIDS..

really you should talk to a gay, before spouting rants from the bible, that have no bearing on a gay person at all.

again , thanks for your faith, but all you really have done is show how holy rollers take the bible completely out of context, in an attempt to suppress those you don't understand.

so. agian thanks for showing the bible does not condemn homosexual behaviour. only repressed christian

may Christ walk with you as he does me.

  • 3 votes
#1.30 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 9:26 PM EDT
Jim420

I would never lie with a man as with a woman, because I would never lie with a woman.

in fact, its impossible for two men to lie as with woman.... they both have dicks....

post 1.28 marked as inflammatory, for implying that I am a sissy... my Dad taught me to be a man. G'damit.

  • 3 votes
#1.31 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 9:31 PM EDT
TruettCollins

Carloz

That being said these old Testament laws were written for the Hebrews and no longer apply to us under the new covenant of Grace. But in the new testament we have scriptures that do apply to us in our modern era.

  • 1 vote
#1.32 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 11:47 PM EDT
Carloz

@TruettCollins, so according to your point of view, we can forget the Old Testament, but make sure modern New Testament ways are followed, like women keeping their mouth's closed and their head's covered in church.

  • 2 votes
#1.33 - Wed Nov 3, 2010 3:56 AM EDT
Jim420

who choses which new testament ways we follow, and which ones we can ignore?? the Pope?

rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water

wouldn't that include catfish... eaten by many many southern baptists?? and also include squid, octopus, abalones, crabs, lobsters, etc???

people don't have any problem with those old testement rules going by the wayside. and then wonder why people like me, see them as hypocrits, when they whip out the anti-gay rulebook...

  • 3 votes
#1.34 - Wed Nov 3, 2010 7:17 AM EDT
Rosie-2429567

IN REPLY TO:

Carloz

LOL! I love how fundamentalists selectively quote the Bible, while ignoring other passages:

***************************************************************

If you don't believe in the Bible then WHAT DO YOU CARE! Also, since you obviously don't (believe in it) then any criticism you have will not mean much to someone who does.

I have noticed that people who claim to be atheists still seem to enjoy "quoting" it. Why???

It will do them NO good and mean NOTHING.

People who DO believe in it are also inspired by the Holy Spirit. How can an atheist even begin to understand this.

  • 1 vote
#1.35 - Wed Nov 3, 2010 10:39 PM EDT
TruettCollins

Carloz . there you go selectively taking something out of the Bible and out of context to try and prove a point............LOL

  • 1 vote
#1.36 - Wed Nov 3, 2010 11:42 PM EDT
Carloz

So, how do you decide which bible passages to follow and which to ignore?

  • 2 votes
#1.37 - Thu Nov 4, 2010 10:17 AM EDT
TruettCollins

You take the entire...IN CONTEXT...realizing that the Old Testament is history of God dealing with the nation of Israel and that the New Testament is God dealing with us today and you ignore none of it.

  • 1 vote
#1.38 - Thu Nov 4, 2010 8:25 PM EDT
Carloz

So, by that criteria women should keep their mouth's closed and their head's covered in church.

Every woman who prays or speaks what God has revealed and has her head uncovered while she speaks dishonors the one who has authority over her. She is like the woman who has her head shaved. (1 Corinthians 11:5)

Let women keep quiet in the churches: for it is not right for them to be talking; but let them be under control, as it says in the law. (1 Corinthians 14:34)

Today's women are out of control, sinful hussies! /sarcasm/

  • 3 votes
#1.39 - Thu Nov 4, 2010 8:36 PM EDT
TruettCollins

Read the context of 1 Corinthians 11:5 and you find that a woman's hair is her covering......
In reference to 1 Corinthians 14:34 when you read the context you find Paul is advocating an order in line with creation. When you take the rest of his writings together with it all you find him praising women who work together in the church.

  • 1 vote
#1.40 - Fri Nov 5, 2010 8:57 AM EDT
Carloz

Sure.

  • 2 votes
#1.41 - Fri Nov 5, 2010 3:47 PM EDT
Hiram-1381633

As a Christian I am appalled by any type of bullying, being a survivor of bullying as a child. Do some Christian leaders perpetuate bullying of gays? I will say in some extreme cases it probably does. In general I do not think so. We hear and see all the extremes in the media, however the general community of Christians I believe would not a do not condone any such behavior. Many of these will stand up and say they voted yes on prop 8. I do not think prop 8 has anything to do with the bullying. bullying happens becasue the strong will always pick on the weak.

There extremist on both sides of teh equation. I do not think we can solely blame just the "Christian" extremest. I believe that the extremist on the side of the LGBT should also hold some responsibility. I know that is not something that is a popular thought , however many of the things they have done as put a negative light on the LGBT community. The anger and hate that some of them has shown towards others who oppose them can and does fuel the same hatred back in the direction of the LGBT community in general.

This is a very emotional issue on many levels. Christians and LGBTs both look at it as a moral issue and and issue of rights. Which sometimes what is moral and what is right can be blurred by what you believe. Can you uphold moral standards and still guarantee rights? That is a fine line that we walk. No one should be denied employment because of their belief, race or sexual orientation. No one should be denied any rights because of their Belief, race, or sexual orientation. There is a compromise for instance in the marriage controversy. I have discussed this with my homosexual friends and family members and they say they are ok with the compromise. That compromise is that domestic partnerships/civil unions just be given the same rights as those listed under the heading marriage. If it is the rights that are important then why change the definition of marriage?

There is going to be no easy solution to this problem. As Christians what we are called to do is love our neighbors. No matter what they believe, or how they live. You can love some one and still not agree with how they live. We do it every day whether we are Christians or not. I have a Gay sister, I love her dearly and she knows it and loves me back, despite the fact that she knows I do not agree with her lifestyle. I have friends that go out an party very Friday night, they know I love them and do not agree with their lifestyle. I have friends that are Pagan, Mormon, Agnostic and Spiritual, and we have some great discussions, and they know I love them all. That is what Christ calls Christians to do, live a life of Christ; as a living example of who He is is the best evangelistic toll you have in your box.

  • 4 votes
#2 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 9:15 AM EDT
GraysonS

I believe that the extremist on the side of the LGBT should also hold some responsibility.

You mean those damned extremists who do such miserable things as demand equal rights?

Many of these will stand up and say they voted yes on prop 8. I do not think prop 8 has anything to do with the bullying.

You do not think that condemning the notion that a group of people should be granted equal rights based on their sexual-orientation encourages treating people of that sexual-orientation as less deserving of humane treatment? Really?

The anger and hate that some of them has shown towards others who oppose them can and does fuel the same hatred back in the direction of the LGBT community in general.

Are you honestly claiming that the hatred directed at the LGBT community by Christians that created such things as anti-sodomy laws is predated by the anger of the LGBT community, which did not exist until such laws began to be repealed? Saying "we're going to take your rights away, and, if you get mad about it, that just proves that we're in the right when we dislike you" is a particularly crappy sorta patronizing.

There is a compromise for instance in the marriage controversy

No, there isn't. There are rights that are equal and there are rights that are not. End of story.

. I have discussed this with my homosexual friends and family members and they say they are ok with the compromise.

And the generation of women who once wanted equal rights were happy with the compromise of accepting the right to vote. And the generations after them continue to struggle for actual equal rights.

Would they take what they could get, at the time? Sure--some rights are better than none. But, no, there is nothing "ok" about compromising.

If it is the rights that are important then why change the definition of marriage?

It is not a change to the definition. You'll notice that the definition did not include "only a man and a woman" until after a bunch of bigots tried to prevent same-sex couples from getting married, in American law.

There is going to be no easy solution to this problem.

Yes, there is, and it looks like this: no longer shall decent human beings pretend that bigotry disguised as religious belief is acceptable. No longer shall decent human beings recognize that hiding behind "Christianity" is an acceptable excuse for misguided, evil beliefs.

  • 8 votes
#2.1 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 10:11 AM EDT
Ozark Mountain Sage

Preacher Man the homosexual is one of God's children just like you. Remember LOVE THE SINNER, BUT HATE THE SIN. Do not preach against the sinner because everyone in your congregation is a sinner and you would not preach against them, preach the love of Christ. Preacher Man reach out to the sinner and preach against the sin. As much as it is within your power let no one bully the ones you and Christ love. Not everyone will agree with you Preacher Man but remember who you are.

  • 2 votes
#3 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 12:56 PM EDT
TruettCollins

Christian views on this subject are not due to any hatred for homosexuals, for Jesus Himself would forbid that. Nor is it due to “homophobia”, for we are not afraid of homosexuals. They are sometimes our parents and our children, our friends and neighbors. And we love them as such.

Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.”

Our desire is to proclaim His life and His power to our fellow humans, who make this world their home. God offers His love to every human life on our planet, regardless of who they are, how they’ve lived, or what their sin. God assures us through His word that He would leave a flock of ninety-nine to find one lost sheep – His love for us is that great! He searches out the lost not to condemn them, but that they might believe in his love, receive forgiveness, and enjoy Him throughout eternity.

John 3:17 “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through hi might be saved.”

It’s been said that Jesus loves us just the way we are, but He loves us too much to leave us that way. When Jesus brings the love of God into a human heart, there is a change that occurs. Although perfection eludes us until we stand before Him in heaven, sin begins to fall away and our lives are changed. The life that is in God begins to flow through our hearts and we begin to know his purity and perfection, His glorious plan for our lives. That’s why Jesus can receive sinners to Himself and then say “Go, and sin no more.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

God has made His vast love available to us, along with His power to change us. Because of this love and this power, there is hope for us that we can become a new creation, leave the old life behind, and walk in newness of life. Liars can begin to speak the truth, coldhearted and selfish people can begin to love others as themselves. Addicts and drunkards can be set free, even hypocrites in the church and walk out of religion and into a relationship with God Himself. Lives can be changed, and our town can be transformed.

It is not the Christians place to attack or condemn anyone for his or her sins, it is our place only to present the gospel and put the rest in God’s hand. We are to live within the confines of the laws of the land as long as they are not in conflict with God’s laws.

  • 3 votes
#3.1 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 1:07 PM EDT
GraysonS

When you seek to restrain the ability of another person to have equal rights and pursue their happiness, it is an act of cruelty. And cruelty is always hatred.

And no amount of misquoting old books will change that.

  • 6 votes
#3.2 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 1:09 PM EDT
TruettCollins

Where did I advocate restraining anything?

And give your evedence of "misquoting".

  • 2 votes
#3.3 - Fri Oct 8, 2010 3:55 PM EDT
TruettCollins

over 24 hours later and still nothing.......

  • 1 vote
#3.4 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 8:13 PM EDT
GraysonS

I didn't respond because I find you dull and pedantic.

The KJV is necessarily a misquote. It is an extraordinarily poor translation that does not reflect the text of the bible. What you advocate is the claim that you are morally superior to other people because of the kind of junk in the pants of someone that they love. It's flat-out evil.

  • 5 votes
#3.5 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 8:50 PM EDT
Jim420

It is not the Christians place to attack or condemn anyone for his or her sins, it is our place only to present the gospel and put the rest in God’s hand

and if you allow anyone to read the bible with their own heart, nothing in the bible would condemn any homosexual, it is only the MINDS of straights that want to read the bible for gays, and tell them to convert..

imagine if a gay, read the bible, and proclaimed that straights must perform gay sex to get into heaven?? there would be outroars....

Christians read their own bible.. (keep their own noses clean as the adage goes )

no Christian, would use the bible to belittle another person,

besides, when you start taking parables as fact, you've lost the point.

Christian to st peter.. " but I should get in, I don't have any boogers, my nose is clean"

  • 4 votes
#3.6 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 10:39 AM EDT
TruettCollins

see #1.24

#3.7 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 3:40 PM EDT
Tad Boomer

I think the conversation went askew just a bit. Children initially learn from family, church, and friends. If you are brought up to think that homosexuality is abnormal or against Gods will then there is a good chance that your kids will grow up thinking that.

  • 4 votes
#4 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 10:56 AM EDT
pjw-708550

Tad, indeed.

  • 4 votes
#4.1 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 5:53 PM EDT
Carloz

Yep.

  • 5 votes
#4.2 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 7:25 PM EDT
Marine-Sgt

100 years from now it will not matter if you were bullied or not, have low self esteem, lack of friends, or have depression.... what will matter is did you accept Jesus as your savior, King, Lord, Master, ruler, friend..... That is what will matter 100 years from now

#5 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 12:09 AM EDT
CrescentSun

Huh? Does something special happen in 100 years?

  • 2 votes
#5.1 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 12:33 AM EDT
TruettCollins

Yes, most likely you will have passed from this life by then and then all that will matter is "did you accept Jesus as your savior, King, Lord, Master, ruler, friend"

  • 1 vote
#5.2 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 12:37 AM EDT
CrescentSun

savior, King, Lord, Master, ruler

That doesn't seem like something Jesus would care about. However, I can believe that he would like to be friends with everyone no matter who they are or what they believe in...

  • 2 votes
#5.3 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 12:48 AM EDT
Jim420

then all that will matter is "did you accept Jesus as your savior,

and how many gays did you push away from accepting Jesus, because you condemned them?

St Peter to Truett. " well on newsvine, you send the message to gays that..."

(It's your choice on the message.....)

Now you see why I insist you read your bible with your heart, and stop spreading Satan's lies in the bible, and pushing Gays away from Christ..

  • 3 votes
#5.4 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 10:46 AM EDT
TruettCollins

see #1.24 ... and realize that I have said over and OVER and OVER that the sin of the homosexual act it no greater than any of the sins listed in the Bible nor any greater that my sins wich I point out for all to see. How ever I can not set by and allow claims that sin is not sin.

#5.5 - Tue Nov 2, 2010 3:42 PM EDT
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