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CARLOZ

Welcome / Bienvenido
Articles Posted: 526  Links Seeded: 8423
Member Since: 8/2008  Last Seen: 6/29/2012

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Americans were once overwhelmingly against interracial marriage. Court rulings helped change that. Will it be the same with same-sex marriage?

Seeded on Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:29 AM EST
Article Source: The L.A. Times
politics, us, gay, usa, california, supreme-court, racism, lesbian, civil-rights, gay-marriage, homosexual, gay-rights, same-sex-marriage, us-politics, sociology, us-supreme-court, prop-8, queer, public-opinion, proposition-8, unconstitutional, interracial-marriage, heterosexism, indiana-university, the-courts, perry-v-schwarzenegger, loving-v-virginia, honophobia, us-9th-circuit-court-of-appeals, brian-powell, a-sociologist, counted-out-same-sex-relations-and-americans-definitions-of-family, perez-v-sharp
Seeded by Carloz
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In 1948, the idea of interracial marriage in the United States was almost unimaginable. The few polls on this topic at the time showed that Americans were nearly unanimous in their disapproval of it.

There is little evidence that Californians felt any different. Yet that year saw the legalization of interracial marriage in California — not because voters approved it or because legislators supported it but because California's courts ruled that banning it violated the U.S. Constitution.

In Perez vs. Sharp, the California Supreme Court ushered in a change that feels absolutely normal today. But at the time, the decision was unpopular. Nevertheless, it was soon followed by legal actions in more than a dozen states that ultimately rejected laws prohibiting interracial marriage.

Eventually — nearly 20 years later — the U.S. Supreme Court also refused to bow to public opinion and, in its landmark Loving vs. Virginia decision, invalidated all remaining race-based marriage laws, most of them in Southern states. As in California, the ruling preceded public sentiment. Even in 1967, when the court issued its decision, only one-fifth of Americans approved of interracial marriage. Yet public opinion soon changed, in large part as a result of the court decision.

It is fitting that the most anticipated present-day court case on marriage equality is again taking place in California. On Tuesday, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals will hear Perry vs. Schwarzenegger. As has been widely reported and debated, this time the question of marriage equality is whether same-sex couples should be allowed to marry.

In the next few days, the legal battle over the constitutionality of Proposition 8, which restricted the definition of marriage to a legal union between a man and a woman, will be revisited. Californians narrowly passed this proposition in 2008. But a few months ago, a federal judge struck down the ban on same-sex marriage as unconstitutional. Arguments for and against sustaining this judicial decision will be made.

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  • Groups: American_Politics, Anti-Discrimination, California Issues, Constitutional Law, Human Rights Vine, Law Vine, Left of Center, Legal Eagles, Political Analysis, Politics in USA, Queer Agendas, RightsVine, Seeders and Posters w/ Manners, US News and Views
  • Regions: United States , Fresno/Visalia, Chico/Redding, Sacramento/Stockton/Modesto, Santa Barbara/Santa Maria/San Luis Obispo, Los Angeles, San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose, San Diego, Bakersfield
  • Public Discussion (74)
Carloz

Opponents of same-sex marriage have warned against equating interracial relationships with same-sex ones. They argue that any comparison between same-sex and interracial relationships is deceptive. I disagree. In 2003, 2006 and this year, I conducted interviews with more than 2,000 Americans on their notions of family, and the surveys revealed an undeniable similarity between current and past opinions regarding same-sex couples and current and past views about interracial couples.

The Americans who most vehemently oppose same-sex marriage today — those with lower levels of education, Southerners, the elderly, the religiously orthodox — fit the profile of the Americans who once most strongly resisted the legalization of interracial marriage. The justifications now used to renounce same-sex marriage — that it is unnatural and ungodly, that children from such unions will be irrevocably harmed, and that such marriages degrade "real" marriage — mirror objections to interracial marriages reflected in earlier survey research.

The one big difference between views on same-sex marriage and interracial marriage is that the opposition to same-sex marriage today is much weaker than the overwhelming opposition to interracial marriage was several decades ago.

Change has started, and will continue regardless of the outcome of this California case. It's just a matter of time.

  • 26 votes
#1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:31 AM EST
supergerbil424

thank you.

  • 16 votes
#1.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:01 AM EST
Brandon-801865

The early, 19th Century, anachronistic values of the Second Great Awakening, embraced by current Republicon, neo-Con, Evangelicals, exists with a demographic "Law of Diminishing Returns."

Anti-Modern ideologies cannot indefinitely exist in the Postmodern world.

The GOBP, Party of No, will find this out eventually.

  • 23 votes
#1.2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:24 AM EST
Lola-984242

Those against same-sex marriage should never marry the same-sex. Those against the consumption of alcohol should not drink alcohol. Those against marijuana should not smoke pot. And finally, those against abortion should not have an abortion. These are very simple resolutions to very simple issues, which in turn will keep government smaller, something the right is always railing for.

  • 31 votes
#1.3 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:37 AM EST
huskergal

Fantastic Lola. The solutions are readily available, if only people would only "see."

  • 21 votes
#1.4 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:00 AM EST
Carloz

Spot on, Lola!

  • 19 votes
#1.5 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:05 AM EST
Black Kettle & Sand Creek...lest we forget

I just wanted to mention something about "the elderly." I'm not sure which age range you mean, but I believe that most who are over 80 years old, see nothing wrong with same-sex marriage, they have lived long enough to know that love is love and it shouldn't be held hostage by the state or federal government. When my Grandmother was in her 90's, she was very excited to be apart (invited - not getting married) of a Vermont same sex marriage - and her friends were in agreement - don't say, well "that's Vermont" - she and her friends were all Brooklyn, NY transplants.

  • 13 votes
#1.6 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:43 AM EST
space guy

Actually I think that the answer to your question is yes.

  • 5 votes
#1.7 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 12:41 PM EST
shenma10Deleted
Rahlly

Lola,

You got it! I don't drink for personal and medical reasons but I don't mind letting others drink, it's mostly not my business. I do try to restrict my friends when I'm out with them because I don't need drunks interefering me with getting them home ::grin::

  • 9 votes
#1.9 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:04 PM EST
Carloz

Shenma10 reported as advertising troll, and comment deleted.

  • 8 votes
#1.10 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:14 PM EST
huskergal

it is unconstitutional to ban a specific group the right granted to everyone. Change is already here. California started it once again and the courts will straighten it out. California's law on the ban of same sex marriages will be totally overturned.

  • 20 votes
#2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:27 AM EST
Mike-475880

Yes you have that right. Oral arguments for the 9th Circuit Appellate court start tomorrow. you can watch them live on C-Span and online. Very historic.

  • 10 votes
#2.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:57 PM EST
ThinksbeforejudgingDeleted
bonos_rama

Hell, there are still people who are against interracial marriage. I think it will be a long fight, but one day it will be accepted and even though people grumble, there will be in the minority (as the anti-interracial marriage group is).

  • 20 votes
#3 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:45 AM EST
Buckeye Voter

Hell, there are still people who are against interracial marriage.

Absolutely. But that viewpoint has become less popular, to the point of being seen as strange.

  • 14 votes
#3.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 12:06 PM EST
Fufu

It's still been voiced here on Newsvine. A member here railed about how he would disown his own children if they were involved in an interracial marriage.

  • 9 votes
#3.2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:41 PM EST
js-445607

That is pretty sad Fufu but this type of parent will continue to try to strangle their child's independence. I've known the type in fact when I married in 1964 my father-in-law was the ruler of the family. His son told me that if I gained weight or didn't take care of myself he'd divorce me. Now why would anyone come up with such a crazy stipulation with a bride 5'5" weighing 115 pounds that was meticulous about dress and hygiene? I thought some of the "demands" and admonishing were about as bizarre as they came but as you wrote some just don't get over their need to assume the worst and prepare to reject even those they love if something goes awry.

  • 9 votes
#3.3 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:17 PM EST
ThinksbeforejudgingDeleted
js-445607

Thinksbeforejudging the truly tragic part of this is I married three men with parents just as you described. They were miserable and because I was raised to honor everyone no matter what roll they played in life it was a very difficult time being with them. It is so ironic however that when my first husband decided to divorce me due to the fact he'd never been independent (and we were tortured by his parents continually) they stipulated the rules for how he should view me as the scorned one then when he began doing as he wished scorned him. He came back to me and apologized for his abuse and I forgave him knowing where the whole business began. I did the same with the other two men I married. I didn't have a clue before we married but as our relationship grew the hate and resentment for those not just like them became a burden and a problem. I find this incredibly sad and a waste of a good human.

  • 4 votes
#3.5 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:18 PM EST
tyler-1708225

You do know it is the blacks who are most against interracial marriages these days. They feel they are losing their culture.

  • 2 votes
#4 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:56 AM EST
huskergal

Not sure about that. friends of mine adopted interracial children. they went out of their way to make friend with blacks so that there kids will understand the culture. I also have neighbors who are interracial and the v]black culture is there as much as the white culture is. Hopefully it is this way in all interracisl marriages or partnerships.

  • 10 votes
#4.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:05 AM EST
Carloz

You do know it is the blacks who are most against interracial marriages these days. 

No, I didn't know that, but even if it's true, it doesn't make any difference to whether or not interracial or same sex marriage should be legal. To paraphrase what Lola said in comment #1.3, those against interracial marriage have the right to not marry outside their race.

  • 11 votes
#4.2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:10 AM EST
tyler-1708225

We are an interracial family with bi-racial kids, adopted minority kids, and foster kids. I don't need you, huskergal, to tell me about your friends and neighbors.

And that is true, Carloz, but in a society where we can't even vote for our choice without being called idiots, stupid, duped, who decides what anyone has the "right" to do? And I won't even get into what the Christians face from bigots. This is a bigoted world with many different opinions and of course everyone thinks only they are right.

  • 1 vote
#4.3 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:26 AM EST
Lola-984242

tyler-1708225 - You do know it is the blacks who are most against interracial marriages these days. They feel they are losing their culture.

That's not true at all tyler, when I was dating a black guy his family embraced me with open arms, however my parents more or less disowned me.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/most-americans-approve-interracial-marriages.aspx

As of June 2007;

Blacks against interracial marriage: 10%

Whites against interracial marriage: 19%

Just so you know, 19% is higher than 10%

  • 13 votes
#4.4 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:30 AM EST
tyler-1708225

Obviously, you missed the more recent stories (2010) on this same subject and opinions were given by blacks who gave their names, not a people hiding behind some poll.

  • 1 vote
#4.5 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:41 AM EST
America Today-Anthony

Lola,

Very one sided on this particular topic. Are we talking about civil unions with all of the benefits or are we talking about a religious ceremony performed in a church?

If you are wanting to make the government force mainline Christian churches into performing a religious ceremony then I would say it goes against your against alcohol dont drink it attitude.

If two people or a woman and her toy dog want to form a union then go for it. If you want the government stepping into religion then I would say that is unconstitutional.

It wasnt the church that wouldnt perform interracial marriages, it was the justice of the peace that wouldnt offer a license.

Separation of Church and State.

#4.6 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:54 AM EST
savingsymmetry

I've never seen anyone in a position of power or any piece of legislation that says anything about "forcing" churches (I refuse to limit this to only "mainline" Christian churches. Don't all religions deserve the same rights?) to marry ANYONE.

Recently a friend of mine was married in Las Vegas. One of the reasons they decided to travel half way across the country was because not a single church in either the bride or groom's hometown would marry them. Not a single one. Why? Because they weren't "members" of the church.

Wrong as it may seem, churches have the right to deny their service to ANYONE.

Separation of Church and State is the freedom FROM religion, not the freedom OF religion. If you want to get on a high horse about that, then might I suggest you get your soapbox out and take a gander at the many articles about the new Noah's Ark theme park being built in Kentucky. They are receiving TAX PAYER money in the form of major tax breaks to push their exclusive, Evangelist agenda.

You can't cry foul and quote Separation of Church and State only when it benefits you.

  • 6 votes
#4.7 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:01 PM EST
Carloz

If gay people want to marry in church, they can simply go to one which performs such ceremonies, of which there are many. There's no need to force churches that don't want to perform them to do so -- and also, there's no push to do so that I know of.

  • 10 votes
#4.8 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:16 PM EST
Lola-984242

America Today-Anthony - Very one sided on this particular topic. Are we talking about civil unions with all of the benefits or are we talking about a religious ceremony performed in a church?

I'm curious, how did the whole church thing came out of either one of my posts 1.3 and 4.4? Did I say anything about making the government force mainline Christian churches to perform same-sex marriage? Personally I can't imagine why anyone would want to get married in a church anyway, but that's a completely different topic.

tyler-1708225 - Obviously, you missed the more recent stories (2010) on this same subject

Do you have a link?

  • 7 votes
#4.9 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:34 PM EST
RACHEL1-933952

I know I've said this numerous times, but, it still holds true:

Anyone lucky enough to find the person they want to spend the rest of their life with, in the truest of loves, let them!!!

  • 15 votes
#5 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:24 AM EST
js-445607

That is the bottom line Rachel...Thanks!

  • 9 votes
#5.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:01 PM EST
SuperSaiyan

Yeah, I also agree with that sentiment.

  • 6 votes
#5.2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:07 PM EST
ThePigeonCount

As a supporter for LGBT rights I've always wanted these restrictions lifted off of abstract concepts that are only supported by people who are either misinformed or just non-caring about their fellow man. It would be a good way too show that the US is home still home to the best and brightest as most of the industrialized world still seems to be lagging behind allowing universal rights for LGBT groups members.

It won't be easy, and it still won't be supported by conservative groups until for what could be a century, but it'll be an obvious victory for civil and human rights.

  • 9 votes
#6 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:31 AM EST
tyler-1708225

Since you bring up conservatives, ThePigeonCount, tell me how a state that votes in a democrat president, democrat federal and state governments, can not vote in gay marriage? Did they just see that question on their ballots? I think not since it was overwhelmingly defeated. And why did the gays excuse them and also the unions that fooled them? That was the end of supporting gay rights for me. I would vote for it again, but never will I champion for them. If the democrats can't put their votes where their mouths are and the gays can't put their politics aside, why should I get involved.

#6.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 11:46 AM EST
America Today-Anthony

Oh for cripes sake.

The whole LGBT community now?

Explain to me how this has anything to do with someone who is bisexual? If you are bisexual you will and do have sex with men and women. How does that clock into living with one person forever?

The truth is that the whole LGBT community live alternative lifestyles by choice. No special favors for those who dont conform. You might as well give rights to men and women that have sexual encounters with 14 year olds.

#6.2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 12:00 PM EST
Carloz

If you are bisexual you will and do have sex with men and women. How does that clock into living with one person forever?

It has as much to do with who you are sexually attracted to as with who you have sex with. People don't become heterosexual or homosexual when they first have sex with someone. There's more to it than that. As for fidelity, I don't believe that bisexuals are less capable than heterosexuals or homosexuals of committing to being with one person for the rest of their lives.

  • 12 votes
#6.3 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 12:20 PM EST
SuperSaiyan

The truth is that the whole LGBT community live alternative lifestyles by choice. No special favors for those who dont conform. You might as well give rights to men and women that have sexual encounters with 14 year olds.

I'm sorry, but there is a clear diffrence between two consenting adults and pedophiles...

The fact is you're even tyring to equate the two is utter shameful and dishonest.

  • 14 votes
#6.4 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:06 PM EST
Carloz

You might as well give rights to men and women that have sexual encounters with 14 year olds.

I'm sorry, but there is a clear diffrence between two consenting adults and pedophiles...

The fact is you're even tyring to equate the two is utter shameful and dishonest.

I didn't even notice that last part, Super. Thanks for calling it out.

  • 11 votes
#6.5 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:12 PM EST
js-445607

It truly is amazing how some can come up with the lamest reasons to resist change and allow a group equality. I wish I could remember some of the crap I heard while blacks and women were fighting this cause. I think a lot of people should be ashamed of their own warped minds and stop pushing them off on others. They need to keep their personal perversions to themselves and stop assigning them just so they'll feel better about their deviant behaviors. Their perverted thoughts didn't stop them from gaining equality now did they?

  • 7 votes
#6.6 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 6:34 PM EST
Azzix

No special favors for those who dont conform. You might as well give rights to men and women that have sexual encounters with 14 year olds.

We need a new type of Godwin that automatically disqualifies anyone who attempts to equate homosexuality with pedophilia.

  • 13 votes
#6.7 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:03 PM EST
js-445607

Agreed Azzix!

  • 4 votes
#6.8 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:06 PM EST
redphish

No special favors for those who dont conform.

Most gays aren't asking for special favors, just equal treatment. I also think it's pretty arrogant of you to think everyone should conform to your standards of behavior.

  • 10 votes
#6.9 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:12 PM EST
js-445607

The trend among the anti-gay is to load up on propaganda and insinuations accusations and flat out lies to make their format sound sane. That is way over now and it may as well be tossed aside as no one is buying it except for the gossip mongers needing a scapegoat for their own insecurities and shortcomings. I guess these types never want to own up to what they've done in life and in need of someone to pick on with their cowardly methods. The bullies of the world are full of fear that they will be left out and they really don't need to fuss as they've been left out for good reason. It is time we opened ourselves to equality for all and stopped those pretenders of outrage. We will beat this and gays will have equal rights and be allowed all privileges we all enjoy. It is coming closer all of the time and the screamers are being suppressed by those with compassion and common sense.

  • 8 votes
#6.10 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:59 PM EST
David-1830107

All people deserve Love. Gay Marriage Union what ever. Everyone deserves happiness.

  • 11 votes
#7 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 12:19 PM EST
Sally - Snoopy's Sister

We know that over time, the power belongs to those with the money and guns (weapons). The rest acquiesce to all.

Depends on the majority, as always.

However - there is also a faith component, here, with this issue. It has the potential for disaster. I would leave it alone. Just my view, considering the political landscape of the current time. This is not a racial issue; and since there exists no strong or convincing physical or scientific evidence to prove otherwise, it is purely a moral one.

  • 2 votes
#8 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:04 PM EST
Motherlessgoat

...it is purely a moral one.

Well, if that's the case, then it's easy.

I believe that the marriage of two consenting adults, regardless of gender, to be morally correct, and those who seek to demonize and deny American citizens' equal rights under the law based solely on unConstitional religious gounds is morally reprehensible.

mlg

  • 9 votes
#8.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:24 PM EST
samenslow

Time will change things. The young could care less. Soon there will be a television comdey with a gay married couple or a movie, and people will laugh at their prejudices. Its new.

If nothing else some lawyers will find there are big bucks in gay divorces and encourage marriages!

  • 4 votes
#9 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:10 PM EST
RACHEL1-933952

Soon there will be a television comdey with a gay married couple...

Modern Family...it's already here!

  • 9 votes
#9.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:17 PM EST
Carloz

I live in Spain where same-sex marriage has been legal for several years, and lots of businesses have found money to be made in this niche market: bakers, caterers, wedding planners, department stores, printers, reception halls, restaurants, travel agencies, hotels, etc.

  • 10 votes
#9.2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:21 PM EST
samenslow

I live in Alexandria, Egypt so missed it. But my point is that humor can do a lot to change social attitudes. Remember Jody on Soap and La Cage aux Follies. People liked those characters as people.

  • 4 votes
#9.3 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:23 PM EST
Fufu

Modern Family...it's already here!

And good lord, they're hilarious and charming at the same time, no?

  • 3 votes
#9.4 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:44 PM EST
RACHEL1-933952

I do not like sitcoms..but, I love this show!!

  • 5 votes
#9.5 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:09 PM EST
Lola-984242

It's the damn laugh track they add to sitcoms I hate. Modern Family doesn't have the stupid laugh track, which is great IMO.

  • 5 votes
#9.6 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:26 PM EST
RACHEL1-933952

Lola- laugh tracks are horrid, I agree! But, it's the inaneness of the majority that drive me crazy!

  • 3 votes
#9.7 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 1:08 PM EST
tyler-1708225

Anyone thinking there is a complete separation of church and state is just naive. Our local media just ran a series on all the accommodations for Muslims in our schools, public buildings, clinics and all are receiving taxpayer funding. Look at all the allowances made for the Amish and other religious orders.

  • 1 vote
#10 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 1:18 PM EST
jedipunk

We are talking about gay marriage vs inter racial marriage? Try to stay on topic.

Plus if you are going to spout of about accommodations to other religions why don't you providing a link that highlights those that are more extreme than the privileges provided any other religion especially christianity.

  • 10 votes
#10.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 2:29 PM EST
tyler-1708225

I believe religion was being discussed much prior to my post, did you miss those or did they just fit in better with your personal agenda.

#10.2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 2:45 PM EST
Tom Daley

You can not legislate hate against any group in society. Gays are in general an advantaged group with higher earnings and are higher up on the social strata. Society will make the decision just like it did with becoming comfortable with interracial marriage. I remember my Irish-Catholic Grandmother having a summit meeting with Mrs. Polski one of the few Jewish people in her home town. They walked around the block discussing the horror of her son Harold returning from the Army and demanding bacon with breakfast. My Grandmother consoled her good friend and they both decided that the world was in shambles. Things change. However there was that guy in Australia that married his dog last week. The only thing that came to mind was "The later he came home, the happier his significant other would be rather than an angry wife".

  • 2 votes
#11 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 2:38 PM EST
redphish

I think it is pretty much inevitable that as our society matures, gays will eventually have the legal right to marry.

  • 5 votes
#12 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 4:38 PM EST
Mike-475880

Yes just a matter of time...but I am not getting any younger ;-)

  • 3 votes
#12.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:26 PM EST
curious-284425

without a crystal ball it is difficult to know if a majority will ever accept it. But, it will never go away until it is legalized. Is it really worth the $millions being spent on fighting it? And, who would really be harmed by legalization?

  • 4 votes
#13 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:50 PM EST
js-445607

The Mormons spent millions on the anti-gay campaign in California. You'd think that any religious organization doing this would be taxed and no longer exempt. If the religious protestors feel obligated to empty their bank accounts to object to a human rights cause it is obvious they are lying about who they are and what they stand for.

  • 6 votes
#13.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:03 PM EST
curious-284425

yes they spent a lot of money, the government spent a lot of money, the gays spent a lot of money..... and they all wasted too much time and energy. And what was the point. Where did it lead. The debate and the fight didn't go away...and probably never will.

But, I am not a proponent of taxing churches.

In one state where gay marriage is legal....a lesbian couple entered into litigation against a church for not allowing them to be married in their church.

I think it is equally wrong for the church to try and force their will on the general population ... as it is to try and force a church to act against their beliefs.

  • 1 vote
#13.2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:34 PM EST
Mike-475880

I would like to see a link to facts about this alleged lesbian couple. I highly doubt that is a true story. No one, I repeat no one wants to be married in a church that doesn't want them. In fact it would be illegal to try and force a church to do such a thing. That would be like a Jewish couple demanding a Catholic church marry them.

  • 4 votes
#13.3 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:44 PM EST
redphish

Agreed Mike.

  • 3 votes
#13.4 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:52 PM EST
Carloz

In one state where gay marriage is legal....a lesbian couple entered into litigation against a church for not allowing them to be married in their church.

I believe you are not recalling the facts correctly, but thinking of a rather different incident which first of all was in Canada not the US, secondly was not really a lawsuit but a complaint brought in a Human Rights Tribunal, and lastly not against a church for refusing to marry them, but against a Knights of Columbus Hall that canceled their reservation for a wedding reception:

The B.C. Human Rights Tribunal has awarded damages to two lesbian women who claim they were discriminated against by a Catholic men's organization when they booked a hall for their wedding reception in the fall of 2003.

However, the tribunal also ruled Tuesday that the Knights of Columbus could have refused to host the party if it was in a manner contrary to its "core religious beliefs."

But the tribunal said in its judgment that the Knights did so in a way that affronted the same-sex couple's dignity, feelings and self-respect and should pay them $1,000 each, as well as reimbursement for out-of-pocket expenses to compensate for their injuries.

"The Knights could have taken steps such as meeting with the complainants to explain the situation, formally apologizing, immediately offering to reimburse the complainants for any expenses they had incurred and, perhaps, offering assistance in finding another solution," the tribunal said in a written decision.

"There may have been other options they could have considered without infringing their core religious beliefs."

Also, the couple said they did not realize Knights of Columbus was a religious organization when they booked the space, so it's not like they were on the lookout for religious groups to prove a point with.

  • 8 votes
#13.5 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:05 PM EST
Mike-475880

Thanks for clearing that up Carloz.

  • 4 votes
#13.6 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:35 PM EST
curious-284425

Mike and Redphish. Sorry, I can't give you the link. It was in the news a while back. If my memory serves me correctly it was a United Methodist Church camp in Mass that refused them. The litigation was against the United Methodist Church.

  • 2 votes
#14 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:00 PM EST
Mike-475880

Well if it is true those two women are totally out of line. That kind of thing would set the civil rights movement back years. I want to be able to marry my partner but there is no way I would expect a church that did not want to conduct my ceremony to do it. That is just ridiculous and wrong.

  • 2 votes
#14.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:05 PM EST
Carloz

Yes, I agree, too, that it would be out of line to try to force a church to perform a ceremony that goes against its tenets.

  • 3 votes
#14.2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:09 PM EST
curious-284425

Sounds like we agree. And for what it's worth...you have my vote.

  • 2 votes
#15 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:07 PM EST
Mike-475880

Thank you. Have a great week :-)

  • 2 votes
#15.1 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 9:13 PM EST
curious-284425

here is a link about the news story that I had read. It says that the article was not totally accurate as first reported. It was in NJ not Conn. This article says it was a public pavilion controlled by the United Methodist Church.

http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2007/07/when-are-we-not.html

  • 2 votes
#15.2 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 10:18 PM EST
Carloz

Thanks for the link, Curious -- it's remarkably similar to the Canadian case I thought you were thinking of.

  • 2 votes
#15.3 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:38 AM EST
Robert Lynn

"The Americans who most vehemently oppose same-sex marriage today — those with lower levels of education, Southerners, the elderly, the religiously orthodox — fit the profile of the Americans who once most strongly resisted the legalization of interracial marriage."

When you spout such ignorant nonsense as this, you should be forever barred from seeding any discussion points.

There is no justification for labeling those groups above the way you did.

To use your logic and reasoning, maybe we should just go ahead and outright label all Hispanics as being the scourge of the US.

After all, arent All illegal aliens Hispanic and subject to deportation?

You like that approach, "Carloz"?

#16 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 8:49 AM EST
Carloz

There is no justification for labeling those groups above the way you did.

To use your logic and reasoning, maybe we should just go ahead and outright label all Hispanics as being the scourge of the US.

I didn't label anyone as anything. The quote you cite is from the seeded article not the seeder. The author is reporting demographic facts he has seen in research. He is not calling them names or disparaging them, nor is he saying these are the only people who oppose same-sex marriage. Still, in addition to the modifiers "most vehemently" it would probably have been good to add another qualifier, like, "Americans who most vehemently oppose same-sex marriage today often fit the profile of the Americans who once most strongly resisted the legalization of interracial marriage."

After all, arent All illegal aliens Hispanic

No study that I know of shows that. But, that's not the topic

  • 8 votes
#16.1 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 9:49 AM EST
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