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History's Greatest Liberals: Jesus Christ

News Type: Opinion — Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:29 PM EDT
politics, gay, faith, immigration, christianity, marriage, abortion, debt, liberal, christian, tax, jesus, gay-marriage, homosexual, left, christ, liberalism, jesus-christ, radical, fundamentalist, moral, caesar, money-changers, evoltuion
By Matt Rock
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Pound-for-pound, Jesus Christ is the most famous and celebrated liberal activist of all time. In this installment of "History's Greatest Liberals," we're going to discuss the man for whom the Christian faith was named, how exactly he classifies as one of the greatest liberal minds of all time, and how the opponents of contemporary liberal ideology might label him if he were to come back to earth tomorrow, spreading the message that he made famous in the Bible's New Testament.

By today's standards, some might label Jesus Christ as an element of the radical far-left. His views on poverty alone would give Fox News enough material to last them a few news cycles. Christ believed that a poor man had a better chance of getting into heaven than a rich man, and encouraged his followers to bestow upon themselves a vow of poverty. You might say that Jesus Christ wanted to "spread the wealth around." He expressed that the wealthy should give to the poor until they had nothing left to give, and if you think such a philosophy might have labeled him as a radical back then, just wait until we start discussing how he'd be viewed today, a subject we'll get to a bit later.

The poverty issue was but one single facet of Jesus' campaign to change the world. He spoke of world peace, equality, and he indirectly defined justice as an adoption of these principals. His view on taxes might very well force John Boehner's head to explode, too: he said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what are God's." Translation? Pay your taxes, and don't whine about it. This quote also endorses the separation of Church and State, while we're on that subject. In Matthew 21:12, Jesus flipped the mean switch, activated his Kung-Fu grip, and set out on a destructive rampage, leveling a market. This action wasn't exactly an endorsement of free enterprise, and one might argue that Jesus would favor government regulations, so long as they protected consumers from the savagery of contemporary greed. and Jesus also made it perfectly clear that the Old Testament wasn't to be taken literally, as so many radical right Christians do today. In regards to the sabbath (Sunday, a day where you aren't supposed to labor in any way), Jesus asked if you'd rescue your son Timmy if he fell into a well (okay, I slightly altered that). "The sabbath was made for man... man wasn't made for the sabbath." In other words, the Old Testament is a guide book, not the law. Noah didn't cram every species of animal on the planet into a boat and there wasn't a worldwide flood... don't be insane. Those are stories meant to teach a moral story, nothing more!

If Jesus came to earth today, what might he think about current events? Let's pick a few of the biggest debates of our time: gay marriage, abortion, evolution, illegal immigration, and our Nation's debt and spending:

Gay Marriage: Jesus never said anything about gay marriage, and as we pointed out earlier, he didn't expect people to live by the Old Testament; he was truly progressive, and probably would have expected society to change with the times. His fight for equality and the defense of the meek (IE, minorities) proves that he would have supported gay marriage, or in the very least, he wouldn't have protested it.

Abortion: This is a tricky one; there's no way of telling if Jesus would have considered abortion to be murder, because he never specified when exactly life begins. He might have believed that life started when the Child was born, or he may have believed that kicking a man in his special bits was murder (and I don't think there's a guy on earth who'd disagree with that!) He was opposed to anyone killing anyone though, so if he did consider abortion to be murder, he'd be against it. But at the same time, he'd also be against religious fundamentalists protesting, blowing up clinics, and assassinating abortionists like Dr. Tiller. And a strong argument could be made in his feelings about the poor. A poor woman giving birth out of fear of God's wrath would be bringing a child into a deepened level poverty, so if Jesus was opposed to abortion and demanded that women give birth to children, he'd also demand that the wealthy abandon their fortunes to help these struggling new families.

Evolution: Again, Jesus pointed out that not all of the Old Testament was to be taken literally, and with his progressive views, chances are Jesus would have wholeheartedly agreed with evolution. He would have insisted that God kicked off the big bang, of course, but there's no evidence to support the notion that Jesus would have disavowed the vast majority of the scientific community and rallied against evolution.

Illegal Immigration: This is an easy one. Jesus' defense of the poor would have made this a no-brainer. I'm pretty liberal, but I'd even disagree with Jesus' opinion on this matter: he'd want us to open our borders and allow the poor and downtrodden to live here, where we often abuse our abundances (visit a $5 buffet and you'll see what I mean). We have plenty to go around, so it would only make sense that Jesus would encourage us to protect those less fortunate.

Spending & the National Debt: Jesus would have rallied against the Bush tax cuts (which account for 30% to 40% of our total total deficit) and trickle-down economic theory as efforts on the part of the wealthy to oppress the poor and feed their own selfishness. He'd also encourage us to decimate our military spending, minimizing our armed forces to the point where we can defend ourselves and nothing more. This all sounds pretty liberal to me!

Jesus was undoubtedly a liberal, but that doesn't mean he'd have voted for Democrats, or that he'd have voted whatsoever. If he did decide to vote, for whatever reason, I'm sure he'd vote for the most liberal candidates possible, which would mean he'd most likely vote Democrat or independent. But liberalism is often confused as a political affiliation, and it isn't. Liberalism and conservatism are social philosophies, not political parties. A person of a liberal mindset might vote for a Republican, and a conservative might vote for a Democrat... it all comes down to what that individual believes. In fact, some of the greatest liberals of all time, including Teddy Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln, were Republicans.

Having said all of this, I don't think anyone should be surprised by the far right's reaction to Jesus were he to come back today. He would be labeled a radical leftist. The words "socialism," "communism," and "fascism," which do not mean the same thing (sorry, had to toss that in, because some people confuse them as they've avoided fancy book learnin'), would be launched as verbal barbs to assault Christ's character. He'd be called a terrorist sympathizer, a lazy bum, a dirty hippy, a treehugger, and his morality would be questioned on the second, every second.

When we strip away the mystical and ethereal aspects of Jesus' story, we're left with a stoic character of strong moral fiber and stalwart philosophy. A proud and outward liberal thinker who sacrificed himself in the name of liberal ideology. He may not have been the first person in history to endorse and live by the codes of liberalism, but it cannot be argued that he was the most famous, and those persons, of or without faith, who truly sought his message and have chosen to live by his words, are in a sense his contemporary incarnates. For spreading liberalism more than any other person in history, Jesus Christ deserves recognition as one of history's greatest Liberals.

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bonos_rama

Jesus was definitely a liberal and a socialist. Which is why anyone who is Christian is, whether they admit it or not, a socialist. If socialism is a danger to the U.S., then Christians, by default, are a danger, too.

  • 32 votes
#1 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:41 PM EDT
Matt Rock

Excellent point Bonos! :)

  • 22 votes
#1.1 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:42 PM EDT
ERich-356044

The early christians, as a result of Jesus' teachings were complete socialists. They fed and took in the poor, took care of each other and shared what they had. Oh yeah... total socialists. Awesome isn't it!

Jesus talked to women as though they were people. Not property like the rest of the world did. Tax collectors were like the mafia now.... totally corrupt and looked on as evil by society, and he hung out with them like nothing was wrong.

About gay marriage, one of his miracles that he performed was the healing of the Roman Centurions servant. Back then, centurions had lovers, that were called servants. I honestly believe he healed this man's partner without hesitation, and even praised the centurion for his faith. Jesus didn't discriminate.

Again, excellent article Matt!!!

  • 26 votes
#1.2 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:59 PM EDT
james-1416766

while much of what you have said is correct....this is my take being an atheist...is that jesus was not a socialist...he wasnt for forced charity..but to give it by choice.

takes him out of the left wing right there.

your analogy is off a bit. he probably would be considered an anarchist.

but otherwise a great article.

  • 11 votes
#1.3 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:22 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

This is a disgusting article. For generations Conservatives have cherry-picked quotes from the Bible to forward the ridiculous notion that Jesus Christ was an adherent of a political philosophy that came into existence several thousand years after he died. For Liberals to use the exact same methodology to forward an equally ridiculous premise is not only outrageously idiotic but perhaps more importantly inexcusable. For Liberals to emulate this ignorant and self-serving behavior despite knowing the enormous detrimental effects it has had on our society is a testament to just how overwhelmingly similar Liberals and Conservatives are in their duplicity.

And as for Jesus Christ being a Socialist - all of the above applies as well. And I find it curious that Liberals should celebrate such an idea; considering the enormous amount of time they have spent trying to rid themselves of the label of Socialism. In any case, if Jesus Christ was a Socialist, he'd probably share the average Socialist's perception of Liberals: that they are hypocrites who profess to care about the poor but in reality defend and perpetuate Capitalism because its abuses have served them well; that they are a group of people who have rationalized their inactivity and selfish behavior by exerting the bare minimum of energies necessary to help the poor and sacrificing only what is convenient for them to give to the greater good.

  • 10 votes
#1.4 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:23 PM EDT
bonos_rama

LOL! When your "god" tells you to give to charity there's no choice there! It's forced! Every command in the bible, including "give to the poor" is FORCED! If you believe in him, you can't pick and choose!

  • 22 votes
#1.5 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:24 PM EDT
james-1416766

bonus

i disagree..you could believe in him and still have choice to follow or not.

he never advocated forcing anything...no government forcing people to give to charity...because that does not show what is in the heart.....giving voluntarily shows what kind of person you are.

think man, think.

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:26 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

Anarchism is overwhelmingly a Left-Wing movement. And as for Christs' advocacy of voluntary giving automatically removing him from the Socialist movement, thats not accurate. In reality there is a strong undercurrent of Libertarian Socialism that rejects the need for a coercive state and instead champions voluntary association for the good of the needy.

  • 4 votes
#1.7 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:33 PM EDT
Matt Rock

For generations Conservatives have cherry-picked quotes from the Bible to forward the ridiculous notion that Jesus Christ was an adherent of a political philosophy that came into existence several thousand years after he died.

Liberalism is a social philosophy. The political aspect merely adapted itself to principals that existed long before Jesus' time. Etymology aside, you're dead-wrong on this issue.

if Jesus Christ was a Socialist, he'd probably share the average Socialist's perception of Liberals: that they are hypocrites who profess to care about the poor but in reality defend and perpetuate Capitalism because its abuses have served them well

Don't confuse socialism, capitalism, and fascism. They aren't the same thing, nor are they entirely similar for that matter.

he never advocated forcing anything

Well, with the exception of that time he went all Bruce Willis on the money changers. That was pretty forceful.

Anarchism is overwhelmingly a Left-Wing movement

Are you sure about that? Claiming that smaller government or no government are better than a central Federal government, demanding lower taxes, arguing against the regulation of the free market... it isn't the left that preaches these concepts.

  • 16 votes
#1.8 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:43 PM EDT
Tony-1517948

If you believe in him, you can't pick and choose!

Bonos, unfortunately you've hit the nail on the proverbial head in this statement right here. The problem throughout the history of mankind.....as a people, we've ALWAYS picked and chosen what we follow and what we don't!! His words have been twisted to suit our need several lifetimes over.....

  • 7 votes
#1.9 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:20 PM EDT
james-1416766

anatoly

anarchy is not overwhelmingly left wing.....communism is overwhelmingly left wing. there are connections between communism and anarchy of course. anarchy has actual ties to both wings.

as far liberarians being socialist.....lmao........by your statment of "voluntary" that takes socialism out of the equation. nothing about socialism is voluntary.

when charity is forced by a central government it ceases to be charity and becomes extortion.

peace.

  • 6 votes
#1.10 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:23 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

Matt

"Liberalism is a social philosophy"

No, Liberalism is not a Social Philosophy. Social Philosophy is the study of the philosophical underpinnings of society and is largely structrualist in nature. Social Liberalism, or as you call it Liberalism, is largely unconcerned with these matters instead focusing on issues of politics and morality. It is inherently tied to modern conceptions of the Social Contract, Inalienable Rights, Democratic Republicanism, and egalitarianism which did not exist in the time of Christ. Its foremost thinkers, Green, Hobson, Rawls, are all celebrated in the halls of Political Philosophy, not Social Philosophy.

"The political aspect merely adapted itself to principals that existed long before Jesus' time."

You have entirely avoided answering the basis of my criticism and are now reaffirming your affirmation of the consequent. Christianity, and in turn Jesus Christ, has been the cornerstone of Western thought for more than two thousand years. Christ has served as an inspirational force in every single discipline Westerners have participated in. Christ is not a Liberal, Liberalism is the product of Christian thought. Just because you can trace the philosophical process by which Liberalism emerged from Christianity, just because you can see the same things within Christian thought that inspired Political Philosophers - that by no means makes Christ a Liberal. To insist otherwise is absurd - akin to arguing that because I can see Christian themes in the Harry Potter series, the Bible must have been inspired by and friendly towards wizards.

"Don't confuse socialism, capitalism, and fascism. They aren't the same thing, nor are they entirely similar for that matter."

As a Socialist, I know quite well the difference between the three. And this wouldn't be the first time I've called you out on a misrepresentation and conflation of Socialist thought.

"Well, with the exception of that time he went all Bruce Willis on the money changers. That was pretty forceful."

That wasn't something I wrote - James did.

"Are you sure about that? Claiming that smaller government or no government are better than a central Federal government, demanding lower taxes, arguing against the regulation of the free market... it isn't the left that preaches these concepts."

Yes, I am. Proudhon, Bakunin, Malatesta, Kropotkin, Bookchin were all self-admitted Leftists. All of the most prominent Anarchist movements in History - Makhnist Ukraine, Republican Spain, the Haymarket Affair, involved Leftists dedicated to the removal of Capitalism and opposition to the State. You wrongly conflate the bispectral nature of Libertarian thought to be representative of Anarchist History. Of course even then your claims are wrong, Left-Liberterians like Henry George advocated a radical reduction in taxes and the size of the government; to say nothing of the pro-Free Market tendencies of Mutualism.

James

"as far liberarians being socialist.....lmao........by your statment of "voluntary" that takes socialism out of the equation."

In addition to reading the following, I recommend you research the writing of Anton Pannekoek, Otto Ruhle, Paul Mattok, and Noam Chomsky. All of these individuals are self-professed Libertarian Socialists. Libertarianism and by extension Libertarian traces its origins back to early Anarcho-Socialist literature and in majority of the world is still understood to refer to Anarcho-Communist style thought. Its only the United States and its bizarre pocket of Right-Propertarianism which leads people to believe Socialism and Libetertarianism are mutually exclusive.

  • 3 votes
#1.11 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:25 PM EDT
Mike Rupert

I posted earlier today on another article that Jesus was a liberal. I find it strange how conservative Christians daily prop this man up.

  • 10 votes
#1.12 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:43 PM EDT
magnoliaave

Now, you are putting words and thoughts into the mouth of Jesus when you don't even acknowledge him, but only to serve your purpose. Bonos, we have had conversation on this and I cannot believe the audacity of you and Matt Rock. Why can't you leave it alone? This man was the Son of God. His teachings are so far removed from the hate and abuse that most of you spew into what is suppose to be a political forum. Jesus does not only speak to the poor, but to all people who will listen. Matt Rock, this seed is a figment of your imagination. Revisit the New Testament? I live by the New Testament. Do you?

  • 3 votes
#1.13 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:04 PM EDT
james-1416766

anatoly

may I suggest you read Mises, Hayek, Rand, Rothbard, Friedman, Wilder Lane, Paul....or maybe just the book on the origins and complete history of libertarianism...

Radicals for CAPITALISM A Freewheeling History of the Modern Libertarian Movement

by Doherty

What you are refering to is social anarchism. Only socialist like to use the term libertarian socialism....as to a socialist it is being radical to remove a federal government...but what it does is not have private property or capitalism.

I am not saying that libertarianism doesnt have roots in anarchy....ie anarcho libertarians or even allied themselves with the left at times....last time was the 60's as libertarians are considered radicals and antiestablishment. but dont get their association with the left at times as being part of the left or socialist in any manner.

it really irks me when socialists like to associate themselves with the libertarian party...social anarchy is not libertarianism.

  • 4 votes
#1.14 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:08 PM EDT
Consider It

No, he wasn't the son of god because there is no god. Never has been; never will be. Jesus doesn't speak for anybody because he does not exist.

  • 8 votes
#1.15 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:09 PM EDT
james-1416766

consider it

this is a hypothetical article....relax.

  • 2 votes
#1.16 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:12 PM EDT
magnoliaave

Consider it - you know nothing, nada, zilch about God or Jesus! I feel totally sorry for you.

#1.17 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:14 PM EDT
Tony-1517948

Consider it - you know nothing, nada, zilch about God or Jesus!

Magnoliaave....I hate to say this, but.....neither do you! That's why they call it FAITH! To claim you KNOW with certainty anything about God or Jesus makes you untruthful.

  • 13 votes
#1.18 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:16 PM EDT
Consider It

Consider it - you know nothing, nada, zilch about God or Jesus!

I know as much about god and jesus as I do the tooth fairy and harry potter. None of which will buy me so much as a coke and a bag a chips.

  • 8 votes
#1.19 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:17 PM EDT
Consider It

this is a hypothetical article....relax.

That's my point. It's like asking...are vampires liberal or conservative?

  • 5 votes
#1.20 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:19 PM EDT
magnoliaave

I do know, thank you very much. And, it's a pity that you don't. The thing is it has become vogue to bash Christians and I will not stand by peacefully without saying something. Why don't you bash Muslims, Jews, Buddhists? Huh? No, you don't because you know we will stand up and be counted and it has become politically correct to bash us. Have a field day, but I won't go away. Untruthful? Is that all you can say? Untruthful? Do I have to be told the sky is blue or that my grandchild is love? No, just like I don't have to told that there is a God.

  • 2 votes
#1.21 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:23 PM EDT
Consider It

You don't know anything. You are merely listening to what your parents, preacher, friends tell you. God has never presented himself to you nor has Jesus. EVERYTHING you believe is based on mythology.

  • 8 votes
#1.22 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:28 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"may I suggest you read Mises, Hayek, Rand, Rothbard, Friedman, Wilder Lane, Paul"

I already have, all though I think your omission of Novick, Read, and Richman to be quite curious. However they (and the thinkers you have included) are somewhat irrelevant to the discussion as the older of your examples, Wilder Lane, didn't even begin writing until more than 30 years after anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque introduced and popularized the term.

"What you are refering to is social anarchism. Only socialist like to use the term libertarian socialism....as to a socialist it is being radical to remove a federal government...but what it does is not have private property or capitalism."

I have referred to Social Anarchism but that is not the only overarching philosophy to which the philosophers I have noted belong. The rest of the section I quoted above is too grammatically confusing for me to respond to.

"I am not saying that libertarianism doesnt have roots in anarchy....ie anarcho libertarians or even allied themselves with the left at times....last time was the 60's as libertarians are considered radicals and antiestablishment. but dont get their association with the left at times as being part of the left or socialist in any manner."

I have not contended that Libertarianism is Anarchism, and Anarchism is Left-Wing. I have said that there are Libertarian Socialists who do not support a central government. I have said that the centuries of Left-Libertarian history is much longer and more diverse than the almost exclusively 20th Century span of Right-Libertarianism.

"it really irks me when socialists like to associate themselves with the libertarian party...social anarchy is not libertarianism."

No, Socialists do not associate themselves with the Libertarian Party. As I noted in my last post, you have a narrow understanding of Libertarianism and in turn Socialism. There are are Libertarian Marxists which do not support Social Anarchism. There are Libertarian Socialist movements which have retained some aspects of the state without becoming the authoritarian structures you believe to be inherent to Socialism. Whether you are willing to research the thinkers of Left-Libertarianism and their fruitful history is up to you but regardless of what you do or do not do, you are wrong in claiming that Libertarianism and Socialism are mutually exclusive.

  • 2 votes
#1.23 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:30 PM EDT
magnoliaave

And,do you know this for certain? If not, keep quiet and steal into the night!

  • 1 vote
#1.24 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:31 PM EDT
Consider It

And,do you know this for certain? If not, keep quiet and steal into the night!

Do you believe in goblins? How about Santa Clause? Can you say for certain that they don't exist? There is just as much evidence they exist as God or Jesus.

Save your rhetoric and just admit you believe in a fairy tale. Something somebody made up to make people like you feel better.

  • 6 votes
#1.25 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:36 PM EDT
Tony-1517948

I do know, thank you very much. And, it's a pity that you don't. The thing is it has become vogue to bash Christians and I will not stand by peacefully without saying something. Why don't you bash Muslims, Jews, Buddhists? Huh? No, you don't because you know we will stand up and be counted and it has become politically correct to bash us. Have a field day, but I won't go away. Untruthful? Is that all you can say? Untruthful? Do I have to be told the sky is blue or that my grandchild is love? No, just like I don't have to told that there is a God

You BELIEVE, that's a lot different than KNOWING. How am I bashing Christians by saying I don't believe? I haven't been disrespectful to you or your beliefs. I am saying you can't PROVE He exists. I can't PROVE He doesn't. You rely on your faith. And that's cool with me, but if you say you KNOW and you can't prove it, then you are trying to pass off your faith as truth. And THAT, my friend, makes you untruthful.

  • 8 votes
#1.26 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:38 PM EDT
magnoliaave

Consider it....when I have met up with people like you in the past there really is no way to convince you, otherwise. And, I don't even attempt to. The only thing I ask is that you have respect for my beliefs as I will have respect for yours whatever they are. Believing is in the heart, mind and soul. It is a personal thing which I don't expect you to understand. If you said to me, I am an atheist. I would say, alright, but I am not. Now, I would say, can we go on with what we were talking about. I don't push my beliefs on anyone, but I will defend them if threatened. And, by the way, Tony, I do know! Bashing, not by you, but others on NV happens everyday. Are you asking me to quote the seed on God?

  • 2 votes
#1.27 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:47 PM EDT
Consider It

I'm tired of having respect for your beliefs. Because you represent a group of people that suppress others who do not believe what you do.

I used to be all "live and let live" about it. But I'm done with all that. When religion takes a back seat in society I'll tone it down; until then I'm going to scream just as loud as you.

Deal with it.

  • 9 votes
#1.28 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:49 PM EDT
magnoliaave

Oh, believe , me, I can deal with it! And, no one is asking you to take a backseat to anything. Somewhere, you have really had a rough time. You just have a good life!

  • 1 vote
#1.29 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:56 PM EDT
Consider It

My life is fantastic. And a belief in a imaginary friend was not necessary for me to achieve the things i wanted. I did it all by myself.

  • 6 votes
#1.30 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:58 PM EDT
magnoliaave

Good for you! May it continue forever!

#1.31 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:59 PM EDT
Tony-1517948

I am an atheist.

I have a hard time with anyone calling themselves an atheist. Just as believers can't prove God is real, atheists certainly can't prove He isn't! (and if they could, I imagine there would be ALOT more atheists in the world!)

But since you insist you KNOW....you have seen absolute proof of the divinity? I don't believe you. Show it, or admit you are attempting to pass off your faith as truth. For instance, you know for certain that Jesus never met Joseph Smith? If not, then Mormonism is certainly plausible, is it not?

How does one look at a Scientologist (who believes we are possessed by aliens) and say with certainty (after all....you KNOW the truth) that those guys are freaking nuts, but it's entirely believeable that Jonah lived in a big fish for 3 days? How does one look at the aspects of any OTHER religion and call them a liar....because their entire life is based on a lie if they are not living as YOU do, for you have the truth and they don't. See, I just can't believe that.

  • 2 votes
#1.32 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:59 PM EDT
Consider It

Good for you! May it continue forever!

There is no such thing as forever. We are all going to die, at the best, in 80 or 90 years. And that's it.

  • 3 votes
#1.33 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:02 PM EDT
Consider It

have a hard time with anyone calling themselves an atheist. Just as believers can't prove God is real, atheists certainly can't prove He isn't!

This is silly. You don't ask for proof of other super-natural mythical beings. Why do you request proof that god doesn't exist? Do you believe in the possibility of goblins? dragons? vampires? boggie-men? Trolls? Of course you don't, you hear a crazy idea and you correctly write it off.

Hop off the fence.

  • 6 votes
#1.34 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:10 PM EDT
magnoliaave

Tony, one can't go to a web page or AP and find proof. One can only go into my mind or my heart to find proof. Does it have to be tangible? Tony, see I don't stay awake at nights praying that you believe as I do. I know that you won't. I don't have a problem with Mormons..why should I? No one threatens my beliefs, but I don't like them being ridiculed. Believe what you want to believe. Be true to yourself and when you look in the mirror and you are pleased, then, that is a job well done.

  • 1 vote
#1.35 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:11 PM EDT
Tony-1517948

This is silly. You don't ask for proof of other super-natural mythical beings

I don't have to.....I watch "True Blood" every single Sunday night.....the proof is right there on my tv ;)

Consider it, I believe that God is possible, but not likely. (Agnostic) Until we figure out definitively what happened to start life....to start the universe....one must keep all options open. I believe blind faith is the wrong answer.....I also believe blind rejection is the wrong answer.....although like I said.....possible, but not likely.

Magnoliaave....yes, in order to pass something as TRUTH, the proof MUST be tangible! That's all I'm getting at. You have your faith, and it guides you. So the correct thing to say is that you BELIEVE in God. The incorrect (and untruthful) thing to say is that you KNOW God....and what He said....and what He meant. Because in my eyes, you're grasping at straws like the rest of us.....unless you're like Consider it......because he considered it, and then he didn't. ;)

  • 3 votes
#1.36 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:24 PM EDT
magnoliaave

What part don't you understand, Tony? I believe is I know! I am not going to get freaky on you. So, I won't. Suffice it to say, I know there is a God. Lets leave it like that.

#1.37 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:29 PM EDT
Consider It

I like the thinking mentality Tony. But you are considering a possibility that has been pulled out of thin air. There is no reason what so ever to suggest a god exist. I could just as easily suggest a guy named Doug created it all. And my argument for Doug could be that you can't prove i'm wrong.

The fact remains it is better to say "I don't know" than it is to entertain a philosophy that man made 2,000+ years ago. To entertain that philosophy is to admit that that philosophy could be correct in the absence of any proof or direction.

  • 3 votes
#1.38 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:30 PM EDT
Consider It

What part don't you understand, Tony? I believe is I know! I am not going to get freaky on you. So, I won't. Suffice it to say, I know there is a God. Lets leave it like that.

See, Tony? This is exactly what i'm talking about. Gasoline on the fire.

  • 3 votes
#1.39 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:31 PM EDT
Matt Rock

Anatoly, your dramatic flare and efforts to over-complicate what is otherwise very cut and dry subject matter is astonishing. Liberalism, by textbook definition, is the social philosophy of equality, the fair treatment of the poor, human rights, and... yes... liberal Democracy and political liberalism. You're so worked up over the etymology of the word "liberalism" that you're brazenly ignoring it's principal facets, and that is precisely where this argument always falls apart. Does something not exist before a word that defines it does?

You're wrong about liberalism being a political philosophy, and I feel idiotic bringing up etymology after having just rallied against it, but I digress. The first use of the word "liberal" was used to define liberal art. The first use of the word "liberalism" was used to define a social movement, born of art. The political aspects of liberalism developed out of liberal ideology. And seeing as how the United States doesn't have a liberal party by any classical definition, labeling an individual as a liberal does not constitute identifying their political affiliations in any way. How many liberal artists can you and I name between us who didn't care for poltics, or at least who didn't participate therein? It would take us all day just to get through the twentieth century.

Liberals existed well before the word "liberal" came into any language's vernacular. Liberalism is an ideology, political and social, economic and artistic, literary and intellectual. People bestowed the virtues of liberalism well before Jesus Christ ever walked this Earth, and to deny that, or to attempt to cover it up with outlandish devices of discourse, is to grossly discredit all of those individuals and the good ends they've all served. Jesus was a liberal. His teachings led more people to liberalism than any other individual in history, which makes him great liberal. End of story.

As a Socialist, I know quite well the difference between the three. And this wouldn't be the first time I've called you out on a misrepresentation and conflation of Socialist thought

Again, you're confused. Liberalism and socialism are vastly different, not because of what they preach, but because of what they are. Liberalism, as any reasonably gifted educator will explain, is a social ideology that adapts itself to (and is adapted by) politics. Socialism is a direct civic. an old proverb about apples and oranges comes to mind, and that is why I called you out on this.

As I've said in a different thread to another article I've recently written, intellectualism and ego blend like acids and bases. It's better to be a comedian than a snob. Over-complicating an otherwise simple subject doesn't prove superiority or genius, but other qualities less desirable. That's why I changed gears into offensive mode here. Digging beneath an open fence is a waste of time and energy.

  • 5 votes
#1.40 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:36 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"Liberalism, by textbook definition"

You have evaded the point again. I have not denied that Liberalism is considered with social equality, human rights, and the poor. I have said that possessing these features do not make Christ a Liberal. I have said that Liberalism is the product of Christian thought; that Christ is not a product of Liberalism. To argue that these characteristics are exclusively Liberal, as you would have to in order to proclaim Christ to be a Liberal simply for having them, is to not only insult every single non-Liberal on the planet but also to dillute the very meaning of Liberalism itself. Which leads us to...

"so worked up over the etymology of the word "liberalism" that you're brazenly ignoring it's principal facets, and that is precisely where this argument always falls apart. Does something not exist before a word that defines it does?"

The etymology of the word Liberalism? I have not discussed the etymology of the word liberalism. You've gone from arguing that Liberalism is a Social Philosophy to arguing that it is little more than a word with a particular set of characteristics attached to it. I have discussed the evolution of Liberal thought and its most prominent of political thinkers. You on the other hand make an argument from superficiality; unconcerned with the historical context of the topics of you discuss, unconcerned with the philosophical traits which distinguish these topics from different ideas, you simplify these matters to avoid having to deal with the very complex reality that is inherent to them. You substitute knowledge and understanding for neat little partisan talking points that can be intuitively understood by readers regardless of how much they actually know about the topic matter.

"The first use of the word "liberal" was used to define liberal art. The first use of the word "liberalism" was used to define a social movement, born of art"

The Liberal Arts was not used to describe a form of art; nor did it describe a social movement. It was the means by which the education of the freeman was distinguished to the education necessary for slaves. Your attempt to disregard the intellectual history of Liberalism in favor of a layman's tendency to group everything sharing a common phrase as uniform in origin only highlights how little you understand the movement you're talking about.

"The political aspects of liberalism developed out of liberal ideology."

Liberal Ideology? Defined by who? When? What are the foremost text of Liberal ideology? If we are to answer these questions honestly, we will find exactly what I have said: it is a political philosophy which began as a means to understand and eventually reject the moral justification for the monarchy. Over the course of history it has splintered in various submovements but still remains grounded in concepts that are entirely the product of the Enlightnment era and beyond.

"And seeing as how the United States doesn't have a liberal party by any classical definition, labeling an individual as a liberal does not constitute identifying their political affiliations in any way"

Yes it does, you are simply unaware of the historical divergence that seperated Classical Liberalism and Liberalism as you understand it today. As previously touched upon, the Liberalism of today refers to a very specific, very defined political philosophy known as Social Liberalism. Although the self-identifying Liberals of today tend to be unaware of the history and content of the Social Liberalism, it does exist. Liberalism is an affliation, a one to anyone who is honestly and knowledgingly approaching the matter.

"How many liberal artists can you and I name between us who didn't care for poltics, or at least who didn't participate therein?"

Nothing about hold a belief requires one to excercise that belief or participate in the political process. Regardless of whether or not they "care" for politics, they hold very specific political beliefs which you identify as liberal precisely because liberalism DOES have a documentable set of tenets; tenets being more substantial and specific than ideas. Caring for the poor is an idea, universally available healthcare is a tenet. I can find people of all stripes and colors who believe in caring for the poor, but only a very narrow set of people believe in universally available healthcare.

"Liberalism is an ideology, political and social, economic and artistic, literary and intellectual."

An ideology that came into being after Christ died.

"People bestowed the virtues of liberalism well before Jesus Christ ever walked this Earth"

No, people cared about the poor long before Liberals existed. You have taken basic characteristics a person can possess and dishonestly argued that by virtue of possessing these characteristics a person must be a liberal. I care about the poor, I pay may taxes, I support open borders and I find the idea of Liberalism flawed and destructive. I have the benefit of being able to speak for myself, Christ on the other hand can do nothing when opportunists, conservative or liberal, stuff words in his mouth for their personal agendas.

"Again, you're confused. Liberalism and socialism are vastly different, not because of what they preach, but because of what they are."

Liberalism advocates a reformist participation in the a Republican Democracy while Marx and Bakunin rejected such positions as being inherently in the interest of the bourgeoisie and ultimately ineffective at helping the poor.

Liberalism contends that social welfare programs can be used to counteract the negative consequences of Capitalism, while Socialists contend social welfare programs do nothing but obscure the consequences of Capitalism in an inherently unstable manner.

Liberalism asserts that the government has the capacity to regulate the market for the benefit of the masses, Socialism contends that the government, being itself an instrument of Bourgeois rule, can be used only as a means to sustain the system at large.

I can cite specific philosophical points of disagreement between Liberalism and Socialism; points which highlight that superficial commonalities do not equate to a genuinely shared approach to the world. You on the other hand can only recite idioms that are totally devoid of any insight in the practicalities of either philosophy. Some of the greatest minds in human history, over countless generations, have debated what it means to "care for the poor". Some of the bravest souls the world has ever known, in the pages of history, have died fighting for what preceive to be a fair and free society. To reduce the most challenging conflicts and debates of our species into a rudimentary and brainless dictomony where everyone, everwhere, at anytime who you define as "good" belongs to your side is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

You can accuse me of being a snob all you like but at the end of the day the consequence of your article will be clear. Countless people, Left, Right, and Center, will be offended by the way you have self-servingly perverted for the glorification of your own faction. It will convince no one other than those who are willing to indulge in such perversion, those who care nothing for truth, and those who simply don't know any better. You will solve nothing, instead only amplifying the contempt so many feel towards Liberals. Christ did not die for Liberals, he did not die for Liberalism. He died for humanity (liberal or not) as any rational person, devoid of a partisan agenda, will admit.

  • 3 votes
#1.41 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:53 PM EDT
Matt Rock

I have said that possessing these features do not make Christ a Liberal. I have said that Liberalism is the product of Christian thought; that Christ is not a product of Liberalism.

Right... but the point I was attempting to make in writing this article, which was apparently overlooked or not read, is that Jesus is a great liberal in history because of his influence on liberalism. He wasn't the first person to bestow these virtues, but he was the most popular, and the number of liberals who've adopted their views, whatever the discipline, should consider him a great liberal mind. The virtues are shared, and therefore, he is a liberal. And that is why I kept bringing up etymology. I wasn't attempting to change the subject, but prove that the subject itself was a moot point. To put it simply, Jesus was a man of liberal virtues, regardless of whether or not he existed before the label did. Does that make sense, or am I not explaining this properly?

Also, to say that liberalism wouldn't exist without Jesus is a bit of a stretch. The ideals of liberalism existed well before Jesus did, as I'm sure I'll get to eventually in this series. How many ancient philosophers preached about wealth, poverty, and justice in the same manner as Jesus? Countless, surely. Jesus was merely the most influential.

The etymology of the word Liberalism? I have not discussed the etymology of the word liberalism

Ah, but it's the fabric of your very argument, isn't it? You're saying that liberalism didn't exist before Jesus Christ, correct? But what I am saying is that the virtues of liberalism existed before the terminology, and that countless historical figures exemplified those virtues well before we started labeling it as such. So liberalism as a movement didn't exist, but liberalism as a virtue was alive and well.

The Liberal Arts was not used to describe a form of art; nor did it describe a social movement.

Read what I said again, if you would. "The first use of the word "liberal" was used to define liberal art. The first use of the word "liberalism" was used to define a social movement, born of art. Without liberal arts, the social movement of liberalism wouldn't exist today. And the methodologies involved in the liberal arts movement translated into what? A social movement. Please do grant me as much intellectual credit as I've always offered you.

No, people cared about the poor long before Liberals existed. You have taken basic characteristics a person can possess and dishonestly argued that by virtue of possessing these characteristics a person must be a liberal

Not true. You're reading the title and little else. This article was intended to show my fellow liberals why Jesus is a figure we should all know and respect, mythical or real, for his display of our ideals and the influence he's had on our movement, both directly and indirectly. Quite a few people who've read this piece understood that, and I'm having a hard time believing that someone equally as intelligent, if not more intelligent than I, saw that point fly directly over their head.

To reduce the most challenging conflicts and debates of our species into a rudimentary and brainless dictomony where everyone, everwhere, at anytime who you define as "good" belongs to your side is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

I encourage you to read the article. It's painfully obvious that either you failed to do so, or you present yourself as far more cunning that you really are.

Countless people, Left, Right, and Center, will be offended by the way you have self-servingly perverted for the glorification of your own faction.

Anyone who takes offense to my offering a historical figure kudos for being a good person is either a fool, or someone desperate for an argument. Neither are worthy of the attention of a person who takes the time to actually read content before blathering about it. And seeing as how people have already come to the article, commented positively, and thanked me for yet again supplying them with a voice, I'd much rather take pride in this piece than allow a few sour whiners to ruin its overall message.

  • 6 votes
#1.42 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:49 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"Right... but the point I was attempting to make in writing this article, which was apparently overlooked or not read, is that Jesus is a great liberal in history because of his influence on liberalism"

And that point is flawed. Just as Jesus Christ wasn't a Harry Potter fan simply because his life influenced Harry Potter, so is Jesus Christ not a Liberal simply because he inspired Liberalism. For someone who emphasizes the importance of simplicity, I don't understand why such simple logic escapes you.

"He wasn't the first person to bestow these virtues, but he was the most popular, and the number of liberals who've adopted their views, whatever the discipline, should consider him a great liberal mind"

And there you go again. Christ virtues are not Liberal. Christ's mind was not Liberal. Liberals should appreciate Christ for what he was, not what their political lens filters him out to be. Christ advocated a great many beliefs which are counter to that of contemporary Liberalism, counter beliefs which can neither be understood or learned from if people like yourself encourage the masses to superficially pick and choose what Christ was about.

"The virtues are shared, and therefore, he is a liberal."

A cat is a mammal, a dog is a mammal, that characteristic is shared, and therefore cats and dogs are one in the same. Lovely logic.

"Does that make sense, or am I not explaining this properly?"

There was never any misunderstanding of your position - it is simply wrong.

"Also, to say that liberalism wouldn't exist without Jesus is a bit of a stretch. The ideals of liberalism existed well before Jesus did, as I'm sure I'll get to eventually in this series. How many ancient philosophers preached about wealth, poverty, and justice in the same manner as Jesus? Countless, surely. Jesus was merely the most influential."

And again, your superficial approach to the topic matter betrays your capacity to understand what I saying to you. I have already touched upon the difference between an ideal and a tenet. Contemplating issues of poverty, wealth, and justice is not the product of Liberalism; nor is it what separates Liberalism from all other forms of political philosophy. ALL political philosophies have tackled those issues, and the vast majority of them are concerned with helping the poor and insuring a just society. What makes Liberalism Liberalism is the unique ideological framework it uses to frame these issues and turn the very specific solutions it presents to them; solutions not rooted in Christ's personal beliefs or actions. If we do as you have done - unilaterally dismiss all the distinctions of history's greatest philosophies as the product of snobbish intellectual elitism - we are left with conclusion that any person who wanted to help the poor and establish a free society must have been a Liberal. The notion is preposterous as countless people such as that have campaigned against liberalism.

"Ah, but it's the fabric of your very argument, isn't it?"

No, its not. The foundation of my argument is the philosophical differences of Christ's actions and Liberalism and in turn the basic realities of causality.

"You're saying that liberalism didn't exist before Jesus Christ, correct? But what I am saying is that the virtues of liberalism existed before the terminology"

I am saying that Liberalism, being a political philosophy and nothing more, did not exist before Christ. You are introducing this nonsense of etymology, arguing that Liberalism is nothing but a word which describes a set of generic goals which pretty much everyone, everywhere, at anytime has concerned themselves with. Even the "textbook" definition you provide disagrees with this perspective, specifically stating the origins of Liberalism and placing them as product of political events:

"The history of liberalism spans the better part of the last four centuries, beginning in the English Civil War and continuing after the end of the Cold War. Liberalism started as a major doctrine and intellectual endeavor in response to the religious wars gripping Europe during the 16th and 17th centuries, although the historical context for the ascendancy of liberalism goes back to the Middle Ages. The first notable incarnation of liberal unrest came with the American Revolution, and liberalism fully exploded as a comprehensive movement against the old order during the French Revolution, which set the pace for the future development of human history."

Liberalism, in your argument, has gone from a very specific kind of philosophy which supposedly existed when Christ was around to a vague set of "virtues" which apparently makes everyone who embodies them as a Liberal. The reality of your responses is that at each turn I have weakened your capacity to specifically associate Christ with Liberalism as you cannot provide any historical data to back up your position; so naturally you have revised your argument to argue that Christ is abstractly a Liberal.

"So liberalism as a movement didn't exist, but liberalism as a virtue was alive and well."

Lets take your very poor logic and return it to the form that we are almost familiar with: Religious Conservatism.

The United States didn't exist when Christ was around, but because Christ exemplifies American values that makes Jesus an American.

Conservatism didn't exist when Christ was around, but because Conservatism was inspired by Christ, because a Conservative could see Conservative values alive and well in Christ's actions, that means Jesus was a Conservative.

You are practicing the exact same style of thought that has allowed Christians to slaughter the innocent and butcher the weak for thousands of years; arguing that because you can identify with Christ that naturally means that Christ would agree with you and your perspective. I can show you examples of Christ endorsing slavery, endorsing female subservience to men, Jesus advocating child abuse and plenty of other things which are both antithetical to Liberalism and ways in which one could argue that Christ was a great number of things we find morally reprehensible today. Christ was not a Liberal, Christ has not endorsed future political philosophies in his life or from beyond the grave. Christ was Christ.

""The first use of the word "liberal" was used to define liberal art. The first use of the word "liberalism" was used to define a social movement, born of art. Without liberal arts, the social movement of liberalism wouldn't exist today. And the methodologies involved in the liberal arts movement translated into what? A social movement.'

The first use of Liberal was in reference to the Liberal Arts. That is a historical fact. It did not breed a social movement, born from art. That is a historical fact. It existed as simple term, devoid of the meanings you attach to it now, for quite some time. Liberalism did not acquire its name because it was the product of Liberal Arts, it acquired its name because of the a common entomological root - liber, meaning free. You have taken a superficial commonality and argued that this exemplifies some special relationship between the pursuit of knowledge and Liberalism. Had the Liberal Arts not been exclusively taught to the free in Classical Antiquity, the disciplines the Liberal Arts embody would not have been called Liberal. History would have progressed exactly the same and Enlightment Era thinkers, being considered with the freedoms of men, would called themselves Liberals anyway precisely because their reasons for doing so had nothing to do with Classical Antiquity.

Furthermore the "methodologies" to which you speak, the study of mathematics, philosophy, science, rhetoric, and music have produced ALL human development. They brought us eugenics, mechanized warfare, nuclear weaponry, and all the other things that Liberals regularly deplore. Liberalism's connection to the Liberal Arts is no more special than any of the other things the study of these fields has produced.

"Not true. You're reading the title and little else.'

And you are telling me what I think and did because you cannot wrap your mind around my arguments. Your article doesn't just assert that Christ had some common values which Liberals should be inspired by - it unequivocally claims that Jesus Christ was a single-minded Liberal who would die for Liberalism and would never even consider a different perspective; that Liberals are the metaphorical incarnation of a perfect being who is without flaw or hate, the modern day social equivalent of the spawn of a god. Don't insult my integrity by claiming that I haven't read your article.

"Quite a few people who've read this piece understood that, and I'm having a hard time believing that someone equally as intelligent, if not more intelligent than I, saw that point fly directly over their head.'

What an underhanded and insulting attempt to appeal to my ego. You have accused me purposefully over-complicating things, you have claimed that I confused, you have derided me a snob and not a moment ago you claimed that I hadn't even read your article. You have the audacity to claim you offered me intellectual credit - it is clear that you think I'm a vain idiot. It does not matter - this is not about the jabs you throw at my character. This is about the facts - facts which you clearly don't have. I have asked you specifically to supply historical proof of your arguments, I have made specific references which counter your claims, and you have entirely ignored them.

"my offering a historical figure kudos for being a good person"

You have offered Christ a kudos for being a Liberal. While categorically defining everything that is good about humanity, everything that has motivated progress in our world as the exclusive providence you and those like you.

"And seeing as how people have already come to the article, commented positively"

So you have found Liberals who, like you, enjoy the idea of having a supreme being equated to their personal belief system. I don't find that impressive. Ann Coulter, Jerry Falwell, and Sarah Palin manage to do that on a far larger scale than you do.

  • 4 votes
#1.43 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:14 PM EDT
Darrah, Greenville, SC

I'd much rather take pride in this piece than allow a few sour whiners to ruin its overall message.

I suppose that means no atheists allowed--or anyone who's "whining."

Bye!

  • 2 votes
#1.44 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:20 PM EDT
MarkLHolland

To magnoliaave

The mistake you are making is in believing that your God exists, while you may as an individual or personally belief in a God. That God does not exist to those who do not acknowledge your God. While I acknowledge that a God does exist the God that I do acknowledge is not nor is not the God of others

  • 3 votes
#1.45 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:40 AM EDT
McSpocky

Pound-for-pound, Jesus Christ is the most famous and celebrated liberal activist of all time. In this installment of "History's Greatest Liberals," we're going to discuss the man for whom the Christian faith was named, how exactly he classifies as one of the greatest liberal minds of all time, and how the opponents of contemporary liberal ideology might label him if he were to come back to earth tomorrow, spreading the message that he made famous in the Bible's New Testament.

This is a very impressive article!

  • 7 votes
#1.46 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:51 AM EDT
CAF

Nice response Anatoly-Rex reading new testament accounts does not find Christ eschewing any point of view but His own and as you point out that predates what is the thought of the day.

  • 1 vote
#1.47 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:38 AM EDT
Mister Momo

Why don't you bash Muslims, Jews, Buddhists? Huh?

Because there are millions of christians who call themselves Americans and constantly work to strip us of our civil rights.
Keep in mind, we only bash THOSE Christians; if you just keep to yourself and don't bother anybody about their religious beliefs then I don't have a problem with you.

  • 9 votes
#1.48 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:01 AM EDT
Larry-304061

Bonos,

Jesus was certainly not a socialist. He didn't believe that the government should own and administer all means of production and distribution of goods. In fact, I can't remember him saying that ever. Your argument in the first post in this thread fails, badly.

  • 2 votes
#1.49 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:08 AM EDT
bonos_rama

James, you are NOT allowed to disobey Jesus or you go to hell, right? That's not freedom to choose, not matter how you try to paint it.

Larry, Jesus was a communist who didn't believe people should keep their own money. He ORDERED people to give up their riches and serve the poor.

  • 3 votes
#1.50 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:36 AM EDT
Matt Rock

Anatoly, to call me out for insult when the entire basis of your arguments is steeped in nothing but pure insult is ludicrous, and your logic is based solely on pedantic deconstructions and over-complications of what is genuinely a simple subject. At the end of the day, you and I both know that if Jesus Christ came back to earth today, Fox News would label him a radical left-wing socialist. I acknowledged in the article that Jesus was apolitical, and that's why every reference to politics was staged within a hypothetical. Jesus wouldn't vote, wouldn't join a political party, and probably wouldn't care to visit this country. But he'd have a heck of a lot more in common with liberals than conservatives, and that's simply a fact. You can try to twist or convolute that however you want, but this entire argument is that simple.

that Liberals are the metaphorical incarnation of a perfect being who is without flaw or hate, the modern day social equivalent of the spawn of a god.

I never once said that. You did. I believe that Jesus Christ existed, but I don't believe he was the son of god. I don't believe he was born of a virgin mother, or raised the dead, or walked on water, or turned water into wine, or cured the sick with a touch of his hand, or possessed any other kind of magical powers whatsoever. I don't believe he was the spawn of god, nor do I believe he was without flaw. And seeing as how he roughed up the marketplace as mentioned in the article, it's obvious he wasn't without hate. He was a regular mortal human being like you or me. I reference him coming back with the same level of belief that Benjamin Franklin will crawl from his Philadelphia grave and find a cheesesteak. I never referenced the rapture, or the apocalypse, or any of that rubbish either. The reason why he made this list is simple, and I've explained that thoroughly enough times to satisfy anyone. Go ahead and question my competence as you have countless times already, and keep coming up with excuses for this article to offend you. Meanwhile, those of us who see how simple this piece is and what it was intended to provoke will chat peaceably.

I suppose that means no atheists allowed--or anyone who's "whining."

That was aimed specifically at the people who take offense to this article and write it off as absurd because they don't have a reasonable leg to stand on otherwise.

This is a very impressive article!

Cheers Spocky! It's good to know someone got what I was driving at here! :)

  • 2 votes
#1.51 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:47 AM EDT
sms29s66

James, if Jesus did in fact say "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" then he certainly was not an anarchist. But then, I'm not altogether convinced he said any such thing. The writers of the Gospels might well have tried to paint Rome in as positive a light as possible to save their own skins and that of their fledging religion.

  • 1 vote
#1.52 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:52 AM EDT
therealist101

I wouldn't call right wingers that. They equate socialism with communism.

  • 1 vote
#1.53 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:52 AM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"Anatoly, to call me out for insult when the entire basis of your arguments is steeped in nothing but pure insult is ludicrous, and your logic is based solely on pedantic deconstructions and over-complications of what is genuinely a simple subject."

Its pretty telling about your logic where in one clause you say "your argument is based on nothing but insult" and then in the next talk about how my argument is based on logic that you disagree with.

"At the end of the day, you and I both know that if Jesus Christ came back to earth today, Fox News would label him a radical left-wing socialist."

And they would be wrong to chastize Christ for that precisely because he is not a radical left-wing socialist; just as you would be wrong to celebrate Christ for "being" a liberal.

"I acknowledged in the article that Jesus was apolitical"

Where.

"I never once said that."

"He may not have been the first person in history to endorse and live by the codes of liberalism, but it cannot be argued that he was the most famous, and those persons, of or without faith, who truly sought his message and have chosen to live by his words, are in a sense his contemporary incarnates"

"I believe that Jesus Christ existed, but I don't believe he was the son of god."

You are talking about a religious figure and regardless of what you believe people will treat him as such. It doesn't surprise me that you'd ignore the religious implications of what you're saying and in turn the way the religious who DO believe Jesus was a god would interpret your article. You are writing for an audience, if you aren't going to write with that in mind I suggest you don't write at all.

  • 3 votes
#1.54 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:56 AM EDT
Anathema6205

Anatoly-Rex:

I'm quite astonished at the anger you've displayed in these posts..not to mention the amount of insults...especially since you're on my friends' list.

Even though people disagree on things, you don't have to be disrespectful.

You stated earlier that god doesn't force charity and helping the poor on his followers'.

It's entirely untrue.

He condemns you to hell and punishment if you don't obey his law.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'"

-Matthew 25:41-45
It's always a choice to burn in hell or not, just like it's a choice to be a US citizen and pay taxes.

You are talking about a religious figure and regardless of what you believe people will treat him as such

Not so; many people see him as a philosopher.

Our own founding fathers believed he was an excellent philosopher, but they didn't believe he was divine. (aka a deist)

And they would be wrong to chastize Christ for that precisely because he is not a radical left-wing socialist; just as you would be wrong to celebrate Christ for "being" a liberal.

He may have been apolitical, (aka supporter of church and state separation) but his values are shared with liberals.

  • 2 votes
#1.55 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:20 PM EDT
Just Neli

Right on, Bonos; great article, Matt!

  • 3 votes
#1.56 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:22 PM EDT
Just Neli

magnoliaave

I do know, thank you very much. And, it's a pity that you don't. The thing is it has become vogue to bash Christians and I will not stand by peacefully without saying something. Why don't you bash Muslims, Jews, Buddhists? Huh? No, you don't because you know we will stand up and be counted and it has become politically correct to bash us. Have a field day, but I won't go away. Untruthful? Is that all you can say? Untruthful? Do I have to be told the sky is blue or that my grandchild is love? No, just like I don't have to told that there is a God.

Exactly what about the article is "Christian bashing"?

  • 4 votes
#1.57 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:28 PM EDT
Auteur 1536

This is a disgusting article.

It can't be all that disgusting if you came here to read it and post a long comment.

For generations Conservatives have cherry-picked quotes from the Bible to forward the ridiculous notion that Jesus Christ was an adherent of a political philosophy that came into existence several thousand years after he died.

Isn't that what Christians - after Jesus's time - have been doing for years?

  • 3 votes
#1.58 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:36 PM EDT
Larry-304061

Bonos,

In response to 1.50, no you are not ordered to give up all your belongings. Try sticking to debating the topic of if Jesus was a liberal, because when you try to talk about what the Bible says you tend to be wrong, as evidenced by these two passages:

"Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7

"But if anyone doesn’t provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Timothy 5:8

So you're not compelled to give, and you shouldn't give all of your belongings away, because then you couldn't provide for your household or your relatives. Seems pretty clear to me.

Also, in response to your contention that "You are NOT allowed to disobey Jesus or you go to hell, right?" Wrong.

All of us disobey the Bible at some point, thus the reason we're all called sinners. According to the Christian Bible, even if we followed the Bible to the letter, we would still go to hell because even the best of our actions aren't good enough to save us. Only an acceptance of Jesus as the savior as well as asking for forgiveness of your sins can save you.

  • 2 votes
#1.59 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:09 PM EDT
Anathema6205

All of us disobey the Bible at some point, thus the reason we're all called sinners. According to the Christian Bible, even if we followed the Bible to the letter, we would still go to hell because even the best of our actions aren't good enough to save us. Only an acceptance of Jesus as the savior as well as asking for forgiveness of your sins can save you.

Then what's the point with being good? If it's all for naught, why bother?

You're being good just so you can go to hell? wow.

With a god like that, you don't need enemies.

  • 3 votes
#1.60 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:17 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

Ana

"You stated earlier that god doesn't force charity and helping the poor on his followers'."

No I didn't. You're confusing me for another poster.

"Not so; many people see him as a philosopher."

I did not deny that. I did not say "all people", I said people - as in the religious.

"He may have been apolitical, (aka supporter of church and state separation) but his values are shared with liberals."

And as I have extensively covered in my post, a shared value does not make one a liberal. The author claims that he treats Jesus as apolitical but he then directly gives Jesus a political affliation - that is wrong.

Auteur

"It can't be all that disgusting if you came here to read it and post a long comment."

No, its all disgusting. I can read and respond to the disgusting.

"Isn't that what Christians - after Jesus's time - have been doing for years?"

Yes - as I covered in my posts.

  • 3 votes
#1.61 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:41 PM EDT
John-1894652

Jesus was a liberal. OMG This just might be enough for the ultra conservatives to convert to Islam a more conservative ideology. So be a good American rightwingers and follow your Presidents lead.

#1.62 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:44 PM EDT
Larry-304061

Anathema,

Not only did you not read the whole post, or chose to ignore it, you're drifting off topic. I'm not debating the Bible or God because it's not the topic. This thread will get big in a hurry because of attempts to debate the merits of religion or the Bible, but it's not going to be because I contribute to it.

The topic is Jesus being a Liberal (Or not). Bonos, under a misguided sense that Liberals are charitable, tries to claim that Jesus orders everyone to give away everything. I merely provided him proof, from what was supposed to be Jesus' words, that he was wrong.

  • 1 vote
#1.63 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:47 PM EDT
Texasrodeoqueen

If Jesus was running for office the GOP would run ads about how he thumbed his nose at the hypocrites and the establishment , the rich.(them). They would portray him as Godless liberal socialist that hangs around with prostitutes and losers.

He would be toast today, just like he was back then.

  • 2 votes
#1.64 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:59 PM EDT
Matt Rock

Where.

When I stated he probably wouldn't vote. Of course, we don't know if he would or wouldn't, and it's arrogant to assume the contrary, but that's why I presented hypotheticals, and stated nothing as fact, a point which you consciously decided to ignore.

In your quoting my article, you didn't prove that I accept Jesus Christ as a demi-god or a diety, or that he had magical powers. A modern philosopher can be an incarnate of Socrates or Aristotle. You seem to be confusing a literary device with a literal statement.

You are talking about a religious figure and regardless of what you believe people will treat him as such.

I never stated that Christianity is wrong, or that my own theological beliefs are superior to those of anyone else, or that Christianity is immoral, so what I believe doesn't amount to much of anything here. I drew comparisons to Christ's life and showed examples of how several of his actions were liberal in nature. If people wish to insert theology into what is otherwise a historical and philosophical discussion, or take offense to someone ignoring the mythical aspects of a character in lieu of historical ones, that's their own decision, one which they actively choose to suffer from.

It doesn't surprise me that you'd ignore the religious implications of what you're saying and in turn the way the religious who DO believe Jesus was a god would interpret your article. You are writing for an audience, if you aren't going to write with that in mind I suggest you don't write at all.

No one forces an audience to walk into a theater. Whether or not you chose to enter is up to you, and you alone. You aren't forced to offer applause or a standing ovation, either, but that's a moot point, since you chose to enter the theater in the first place. And if you walk into a theater and pay your admission without so much as glancing at a marquee, then you surrender your right to complain about what happens on the stage.

  • 1 vote
#1.65 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:07 PM EDT
1standlastword

And so the modern day pharisees--jews and gentiles, mostly of the GOP with some democrats tossed in to balance things out--have a hold on the throttle of American power and govenment....Is that the bottomline? I can get my head around that. I can believe they would conspire to crucify the metaphorical Jesus all over again as they smash under foot the concepts of grace, charity and forgiveness constantly...yeah I can get my head around that

  • 1 vote
#1.66 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:13 PM EDT
tomwcraig

You might get a different view of Jesus Christ if you read The Book of Mormon.

Here's the link to the LDS page containing The Book of Mormon:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/contents

Click any of the scripture titles and then click on the chapters you wish to read. Third and Fourth Nephi encompass the time period from his birth to after he rose from the grave and what happened here in the Americas during that time period.

The reason that Jesus stated that a poor man has a better chance of getting into heaven is the fact that most poor people are humbled by their experiences and actually believe more in Jesus and God than a rich man, whom has become enamoured of his possessions and wealth.

  • 1 vote
#1.67 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:15 PM EDT
Auteur 1536

No, its all disgusting.

But it's obviously not. Someone who found a certain article disgusting wouldn't take the time to write out long detailed comments so obviously you think the article is more interesting than it is just disgusting.

  • 1 vote
#1.68 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:34 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"When I stated he probably wouldn't vote."

Jesus was undoubtedly a liberal, but that doesn't mean he'd have voted for Democrats, or that he'd have voted whatsoever. If he did decide to vote, for whatever reason, I'm sure he'd vote for the most liberal candidates possible, which would mean he'd most likely vote Democrat or independent. But liberalism is often confused as a political affiliation, and it isn't. Liberalism and conservatism are social philosophies, not political parties

You give Jesus a political affliation and then proceed to diffentiate between political parties and political philosophies. Not voting or not voting for one of the two main parties in the US doesn't mean you're apolitical. I don't vote but I'm far from apolitical. If after having an entire article calling Jesus a liberal that is the best you can do, I'd say you're grasping for straws.

"it's arrogant to assume the contrary, but that's why I presented hypotheticals, and stated nothing as fact, a point which you consciously decided to ignore."

The entire justification for your argument that Christ was a liberal is based on hypotheticals. I have not ignored this - I have indentified the modern concepts inherent to your hypotheticals and shown that the nature of time prevents them from being the product of Christ's thoughts. Numerous time you begin with a variant of "I don't know Christ actually thought" but then proceed to inject a liberal perspective as because you can agree with your own logic. Pointing out that is a hypothetical does not excuse this behavior. I could hypothesize that Christ was support me marrying my tennis shoes but that doesn't change the fact that such a hypothesis would not have any factual basis in the Bible. Furthermore your entire response to myself and those who have criticized this piece demonstrates that you aren't actually treating this as a hypothetical extrapolation of what Christ would believe. A thesis is open to debate and invariably leads to a discussion of the complexities of History. You on the other hand assert this discussion should be simple because Jesus IS a Liberal. Because the underlying claims of your argument ARE correct. That is not indicative of an approach that seeks to investigate and discover the truth of the matter; it is indicative of a belief that one has already reached the truth and anyone who disagrees is a "sour whiner".

"In your quoting my article, you didn't prove that I accept Jesus Christ as a demi-god or a diety"

I did not attempt to prove that you believed such things. I argued that your personal beliefs are irrelevant when one considers the effect your claim will have on readers. Readers don't know your religious beliefs and your large portions of your article are based on what would happen if Christ returned. All of this leads readers to believe that you are a believer in the metaphysical Christ. But again - thats irrelevant. Because one way or the other Christians could easily be offended by the impliciation that Liberals are the embodiment of Christ's way.

"I never stated that Christianity is wrong, or that my own theological beliefs are superior to those of anyone else, or that Christianity is immoral, so what I believe doesn't amount to much of anything here."

And you've completely missed the point. Do you intend to give the impression that Liberals are contemporary incarnation of Christ?

If yes - you're disgusting.

If no - you're a sloppy writer for not considering how your audience can interpret your piece that way.

"that's their own decision, one which they actively choose to suffer from."

If your piece reinforces negative conceptions of Liberals it will only amplify the contempt those who dislike liberals feel. An author who knowingly looks the other way as their inflammatory work further divides the masses and entrenches division is a contemptable person.

"No one forces an audience to walk into a theater"

That is entirely besides the point. The entire purpose of writing is to transmit ideas and arguments to an audience and expand their horizons. If a piece of writing fails to express the author's intent, if the audience walks away thinking the author has said something he did not actually intend to say, then that piece is bad. Even if we ignore all the failures in logic, the historical inaccuracies, and the gross misuse of terminology, even if we accept the idea that its gone over my head, your piece is still bad precisely because it fails to present its argumentation in a manner that the reader doesn't consistently misinterpret or see problems with.

  • 2 votes
#1.69 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:58 PM EDT
TiG.

Matt

Sorry I am late to the party. Here is the essence that I read in your article.

Conclusion: "Pound-for-pound, Jesus Christ is the most famous and celebrated liberal activist of all time."

Premise: Jesus Christ is 'as famous as Jesus’ :)

Hypothesis: "Jesus Christ would be called a liberal by the opponents of contemporary liberal ideology."

Argument:

He expressed that the wealthy should give to the poor until they had nothing left to give, …

If your encapsulation of Jesus’ position is accurate then I do not see this as particularly liberal. Since when do liberals propose a pure egalitarian society where everyone has identical wealth? Show of hands, please?

"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what are God's." Translation? Pay your taxes, and don't whine about it.

Your translation seems a bit self-serving. What if Caesar asks too much? Was Jesus suggesting that one pay unto Caesar what is rightfully Caesar’s or to pay unto Caesar whatever he demands? See even evil conservatives believe in paying taxes. I suspect that liberalism does not include the principle that all members of society should pay whatever their government demands of them.

This quote also endorses the separation of Church and State

In what way does that quote stipulate that the State should be religiously neutral?

… one might argue that Jesus would favor government regulations, so long as they protected consumers from the savagery of contemporary greed.

Quite an extrapolation from a verse whose point is the misuse of church site to allow greedy merchants to exploit naïve consumers. But let’s go with your interpretation. So someone in favor of government enforced consumer protection is automatically a liberal? This is a uniquely liberal notion?

Gay Marriage: Jesus never said anything about gay marriage, …

Given.

His fight for equality and the defense of the meek (IE, minorities) proves that he would have supported gay marriage, or in the very least, he wouldn't have protested it.

Proves? Okay so this also proves that Jesus would support polygamy, polyandry, group marriage, etc. It also proves that (no equivalency by the way) Jesus would support inter-species marriage (some guy marrying his goat), consanguineous marriage (marrying mom or sis), etc. If we focus on the core of your argument – the defense of the meek - then this logic suggests that liberalism is all about supporting any minority – regardless of what the minority stands for. As long as the practice is done by a minority (the meek) it is acceptable and should be protected. Is that what liberals believe?

Abortion: This is a tricky one; there's no way of telling …

Okay, so let’s skip this one.

Evolution: … there's no evidence to support the notion that Jesus would have disavowed the vast majority of the scientific community and rallied against evolution.

Again, accepting the extrapolation for the moment, you are suggesting that belief in evolution is an exclusively liberal tenet. So conservatism rejects evolution? It is a principle of conservatism to reject scientific evidence such as the aging of Earth at 4.5 B years? Since when is acceptance of science a distinctive characteristic of liberalism?

Illegal Immigration: This is an easy one. Jesus' defense of the poor would have made this a no-brainer.

But you characterize this as liberalism. Thus you are claiming that liberalism supports unconditional giving – that liberalism itself prescribes amnesty for those who have illegally entered our country and in fact liberalism prescribes adopting Mexico (open borders) and spreading our (remaining) wealth until we are all equal. This is liberalism?

Spending & the National Debt: Jesus would have rallied against the Bush tax cuts (which account for 30% to 40% of our total total deficit) and trickle-down economic theory as efforts on the part of the wealthy to oppress the poor and feed their own selfishness. He'd also encourage us to decimate our military spending, minimizing our armed forces to the point where we can defend ourselves and nothing more. This all sounds pretty liberal to me!

Yes it does sound liberal. But you simple posed what Jesus would believe – you declared it as fact. Bush cut the lowest tax bracket from 15% to 10%. Would Jesus object to that (Caesar demanded less)? Or is it the case that Jesus would disagree with the underlying economic theory? Was Jesus a Keynesian too? :) As for defense spending, evidence suggests that Jesus would strike the military altogether (turn the cheek and all that). Is that liberalism?

__________________

In my view, you are playing this game a bit too loose. In some cases you read a lot into select biblical quotes and in other cases you deem ‘liberal’ that which does not seem to me to be exclusively liberal.

  • 3 votes
#1.70 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:19 AM EDT
RT8

All of us disobey the Bible at some point, thus the reason we're all called sinners. According to the Christian Bible, even if we followed the Bible to the letter, we would still go to hell because even the best of our actions aren't good enough to save us. Only an acceptance of Jesus as the savior as well as asking for forgiveness of your sins can save you.

Then what's the point with being good? If it's all for naught, why bother?

You're being good just so you can go to hell? wow.

With a god like that, you don't need enemies.

You ignored the most crucial line of Larry's post.

Only an acceptance of Jesus as the savior as well as asking for forgiveness of your sins can save you.

He's not saying that you don't have to be "good", he's saying that there's more to Christianity than that.

In Matthew 21:12, Jesus flipped the mean switch, activated his Kung-Fu grip, and set out on a destructive rampage, leveling a market. This action wasn't exactly an endorsement of free enterprise, and one might argue that Jesus would favor government regulations, so long as they protected consumers from the savagery of contemporary greed.

As a conservative, I do agree that there should be reasonable standards and regulations to protect people from dishonest practices (not necessarily to protect people from themselves). Reread that passage, he was angered that they were not respecting the sanctity of the temple, not a market. Matthew 21:13 says

And he said to them, "It is written: 'My house shall be a house of prayer,' but you are making it a den of thieves."

The temple/church, etc. is for prayer, that's what he was emphasizing.

But at the same time, he'd also be against religious fundamentalists protesting, blowing up clinics, and assassinating abortionists like Dr. Tiller

Any decent person is against using violence in that way. Peaceful protests are a different matter totally. I've prayed the rosary with my campus priest in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic, but I'm in no way a fundamentalist. Saying Jesus would be against these "protests" is kind of saying he's against free speech, seeing as the demonstrations we have done are protected under the 1st amendment...just thinking "out loud" here.

#1.71 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:06 PM EDT
Matt Rock

You give Jesus a political affliation and then proceed to diffentiate between political parties and political philosophies.

No, I do not. I never said Jesus was a Democrat... that would be a political affiliation. And if Jesus did decide to vote (neither of us can say positively if he would or wouldn't), what specifically in my statement makes it invalid or incorrect? Or are you simply offended by the concept of Jesus walking into a polling station?

Numerous time you begin with a variant of "I don't know Christ actually thought" but then proceed to inject a liberal perspective as because you can agree with your own logic

Wrong. I'm basing my opinions on the actions and sayings of Jesus as presented in the bible, not wildly asserting that he must be this or that because I say so. I'm pretty sure I made that evident in the article.

Furthermore your entire response to myself and those who have criticized this piece demonstrates that you aren't actually treating this as a hypothetical extrapolation of what Christ would believe. A thesis is open to debate and invariably leads to a discussion of the complexities of History.

In #1.4, you opened with "this is a disgusting article." That's not constructive criticism or intellectual debate, nor is such a comment conductive to serious, mature, responsible discourse. When criticism is fair and reasonable, I attempt to be fair and reasonable as well. Look down my friends list and you'll find a number of people with whom I disagree on nearly everything... we agree to disagree, and that's why I'm willing to add them. You've spent much of your time here attacking my intelligence and credibility, and as such, you haven't merited the notion that you're offering fair or reasonable assertions.

Do you intend to give the impression that Liberals are contemporary incarnation of Christ?

Yes, in that liberals today indirectly carry on his works and legacy. In fact, some liberals do this more than some self-confessed Christians do. That doesn't mean we're born of Christ's seed, or that he works through us, or that he lives inside of us. It means he'd be proud of the work some liberals perform and that his efforts live on in the contemporary facets of liberalism.

If yes - you're disgusting.

Only when you convolute the asserted definition to suit your own argumentative desires.

If no - you're a sloppy writer for not considering how your audience can interpret your piece that way.

Seeing as how several people have left comments and sent in emails denoting that they fully comprehended what this article intended, I don't believe I misjudged the audience's interpretation so much as I misjudged the manufactured interpretation of those who seek to discredit this piece however they possibly can.

The entire purpose of writing is to transmit ideas and arguments to an audience and expand their horizons. If a piece of writing fails to express the author's intent, if the audience walks away thinking the author has said something he did not actually intend to say, then that piece is bad. Even if we ignore all the failures in logic, the historical inaccuracies, and the gross misuse of terminology, even if we accept the idea that its gone over my head, your piece is still bad precisely because it fails to present its argumentation in a manner that the reader doesn't consistently misinterpret or see problems with.

So in other words, I'm a bad writer for how the content is framed, and the people who fully understood the content, the framing, and the message it was intended to transmit are... what? Ignorant? Bias? Bad pieces of literature themselves?

TiG and RT8, I will come back a bit later and reply to your questions and comments as soon as I can, but I want to make sure I skim through all of the comments here and in other articles before I devote a large block of time to answering more. Be back soon :)

#1.72 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:34 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"No, I do not. I never said Jesus was a Democrat... that would be a political affiliation.

Do you even read what I write? I am starting to get the opinion that the answer is no. I never said you said Jesus was a Democrat, in fact I specifically quoted, highlighted, and referenced sections of your article which emphasized that you weren't making a point about parties. Political affiliation does NOT refer just to parties. You have specifically associated Christ with a particular ideology - that is giving him a political affiliation.

"And if Jesus did decide to vote (neither of us can say positively if he would or wouldn't), what specifically in my statement makes it invalid or incorrect?"

"Not voting or not voting for one of the two main parties in the US doesn't mean you're apolitical. I don't vote but I'm far from apolitical."

I won't keep quoting myself back to you.

"Wrong. I'm basing my opinions on the actions and sayings of Jesus as presented in the bible, not wildly asserting that he must be this or that because I say so. I'm pretty sure I made that evident in the article."

Your basing your argument extrapolations of hypothesizes based on weak interpretations. You reference the Bible a mere three times - which is the equal to the number of times you directly state you don't know what Jesus would actually say on the matter.

But one of the most irritating and baseless assertions that you make is that Jesus Christ did not view the Old Testament as law simply because Christ clarified the relative importance of the Sabbath. If we place your quote in its proper context -

23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

24 And the Pharisees said to him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

25 And he said to them, Have you never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungered, he, and they that were with him?

26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the show bread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

27 And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Had you any actual understanding of what you were referencing, you would realize how ludicrous your argument is. During this time period the Jewish authorities had turned the Sabbath into a particularly burdensome day; enforcing any number of cumbersome observances on to the people. Far from disregarding the OT as a mere "guidebook", Christ justifies the actions of his disciples by the OT itself; specifically 1 Samuel 21. Christ's response was three-fold:

A) Demonstrating there was no doctrinal contradiction between what was done and what was asserted as proper under Mosaic Law.

B) That the needs of Man sometimes are more important that obeying the strict particulars of law.

C) That considering A, the issue was a matter of interpretation and not violation and so he, as a man but also God, was the supreme authority on the proper interpretation and implementation of Mosaic Law; an assertion that is consistent with Christ's direct confrontations with the Jewish establishment.

When one knows the aforementioned and then considers your next argument ("Noah didn't cram every species of animal on the planet into a boat and there wasn't a worldwide flood... don't be insane.") it becomes abundantly clear that assertions, far from being based on what Jesus was actually saying, are the product of an ill-informed understanding of the material you're working with.

But even if we ignore all the aforementioned and accept your superficial reading and shallow understanding of Christ's words in Mark 2 as fact, we immediately run into other Biblical challenges to your argument. Which are to believe is a more accurate description of Christ's opinion on the authority of the OT? Your obscure and vague quotation in reference to the Sabbath, or Matthew 5 - one of the most significant sermon's Christ delivers and one of the seminal group of chapters in the entire New Testament?

In speaking to a large group of people, Christ again offers a scathing denunciation of the Pharisees and responds to their accusations (quite similar to your's) that he is dismissing the authority of what is laid out in the OT. Christ states:

17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Christ states that he is on Earth to fulfill, to enforce, the Law of the OT. He is so strong in this purpose that not even a change in the lettering of the Bible shall occur until it is fully implemented and then goes on to state that even invalidating the least (least important) of the commandments outlined in the Bible will cause the heavens to view the changer as the lowest of the low. Is Christ entirely consistent in his application of Biblical Law? Of course not. But to take his inconsistencies and then declare that Christ acknowledged and expounded that tales, fundamental to Abrahamic religions are untrue is simply ridiculous. Throughout the NT Christ constantly reaffirms the historical authenticity of the OT and says its contents were the word of god himself. Yet throughout your entire article you constantly refer back to and rely on this flimsy claim to the contrary - which naturally allows you the ability to take YOUR BELIEFS and stuff them in the mouth of Christ. That is why your article is disgusting - because it is a dishonest, baseless, self-serving, irrational, illogical, contradictory, superficial mess.

"In #1.4, you opened with "this is a disgusting article." That's not constructive criticism or intellectual debate, nor is such a comment conductive to serious, mature, responsible discourse"

You're right, its not. It was the numerous OTHER assertions that constituted a thorough invalidation of your underlying logic and claims. Ignoring the valid challenges I put forth to your article simply because I didn't bend over and kiss your boots for your poor article says plenty about how you think these discussion should take place. You can't disprove my counterargument so instead you draw attention to my lack of respect for you as if it some how strengthens your argument. Respect is something earned through hard-work and honesty, you have not earned my respect.

"Yes"

Good, then you're disgusting. To argue that a select portion of the population, purposefully leaving out the enormous number of people who do great goods in our world without affiliating themselves with Liberalism, deserves to be seen in the same light as Jesus Christ is simply disgusting. It is a disgusting disrespect to the good that ALL people can and do do. It is a disrespect to the message of Christ. It is a disrespect to all viewpoints counter to your own. Your article is nothing but insult and disrespect, so don't even for a moment try to claim that I started this disrespectful atmosphere.

"Only when you convolute the asserted definition to suit your own argumentative desires.'

And the Kettle tries to call me a black pot.

"Seeing as how several people have left comments and sent in emails denoting that they fully comprehended what this article intended"

Keyword: can. Again, defending with an entirely irrelevant response.

"I don't believe I misjudged the audience's interpretation so much as I misjudged the manufactured interpretation of those who seek to discredit this piece however they possibly can."

Manufactured interpretation? Pray tell, who manufactured my interpretation? For what purpose? Why specifically you? How does the direct historical contradictions to your article that I've presented constitute "manufactured interpretations".

"So in other words, I'm a bad writer for how the content is framed"

Yes.

" the people who fully understood the content"

No.

"the framing"

Do I hear an echo?

"the message it was intended to transmit are... what? Ignorant? Bias? Bad pieces of literature themselves?"

All of the above.

The section you quoted was a layered but I realize attempting to make that kind of an argument with you was a mistake. Maybe one sentence answers will work better...

  • 2 votes
#1.73 - Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:10 PM EDT
VisionCoast

Anatoly-Rex:

You have specifically associated Christ with a particular ideology - that is giving him a political affiliation.

Why would liberalism automatically be political?

  • 2 votes
#1.74 - Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:28 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"Why would liberalism automatically be political?"

Because Liberalism is a political philosophy.

  • 2 votes
#1.75 - Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:43 PM EDT
Concerned Citizen-1303521

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished

In one statement he says nothing will change until they are fulfilled, and in another he says he has come to fulfill them (showing us they will change).

He already fulfilled the law and the prophets. They are not abolished, because that would invalidate their original purpose.

Being freed from the "curse of the law" is a pretty big theme in the NT and in Paul's letters.

  • 1 vote
#1.76 - Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:31 PM EDT
VisionCoast

Anatoly-Rex:

Because Liberalism is a political philosophy.

Why can liberalism not simply be a code of ethics or principles sans the political? Maybe I have too much of an imagination, but I can conceive of a society built on liberal structural tenets without political burden. Is this an anarchical premise?

  • 2 votes
#1.77 - Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:23 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"Why can liberalism not simply be a code of ethics or principles sans the political? Maybe I have too much of an imagination, but I can conceive of a society built on liberal structural tenets without political burden"

Because "liberal structural tenets" ARE politics. How we define liberty, what our relationship to the government is, what our rights are, those kinds of questions are what defines politics. Even in a society where everyone adopts a Liberal perspective, where these issues are not debated in a political arena, Liberalism is still a political philosophy. It is still a specific and formulated answer to these questions which differs from that of other political philosophies.

  • 2 votes
#1.78 - Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:57 PM EDT
VisionCoast

It is still a specific and formulated answer to these questions which differs from that of other political philosophies.

Liberalism is also a specifically different answer to major religious philosophies in that it adheres only to the most fundamental dogma, e.g., don't kill others or steal from them.

Isn't there a distinction between political liberalism and individual liberalism? For example, a person may be constrained under a conservative political system while adhering to liberal personal philosophy without political application. In other words, liberalism that is personally broad-minded, intellectually free and altruistic in nature without seeking to impose the philosophy on others.

Assuming historical accuracy, Christ might be such a person. In his time, rejecting the legalism of the religious powers and dismissing the authority of the state powers, he advocated at least some principles of liberalism with "you are your brother's keeper" without being political.

  • 3 votes
#1.79 - Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:54 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

I celebrated my girlfriend's birthday party last night, during which I do believe I drank my own weight in peppermint schnapps; so forgive me if I don't give particularly coherent responses to the points of your post.

"Liberalism is also a specifically different answer to major religious philosophies in that it adheres only to the most fundamental dogma, e.g., don't kill others or steal from them."

As I attempted to illustrate in my critique of Matt's article, we can find quite a few commonly held and fundamental beliefs that cross any number of philosophies. What makes Liberalism Liberalism is not these generic moral precepts that are more or less inherent to the human condition but rather the unique responses it gives to far more dividing questions. In this, and your response, we see the problem with taking "the basics" and then using them to attach the particulars onto a specific individual.

You're right - what makes Liberalism different from most major religions is that it asserts its moral system without justifying with some time of spiritual basis. Jesus Christ on the other hand consistently argues from his divinity and the existence of a God. You've made this distinction accidently but in doing so you've demonstrated my point perfectly. A few overlapping points of agreement don't magically make two differing perspectives the same.

"Isn't there a distinction between political liberalism and individual liberalism? For example, a person may be constrained under a conservative political system while adhering to liberal personal philosophy without political application. In other words, liberalism that is personally broad-minded, intellectually free and altruistic in nature without seeking to impose the philosophy on others."

I am a Socialist, living in a Liberal society. My actions are constrained by Liberalism, limited by the faith in Liberalism those around me hold. Regardless of how I act, regardless of the constraints placed upon me, Socialism is still Socialism. My open-mindedness, my intellectual freedom, and altrustism are not the product of an adherence to or an agreement with Liberalism. You have done what Matt has done - taken general characteristics and conflated them with Liberalism. This is no different than saying "Only Conservatives are responsible" or "Only Right-Wingers serve their country". We may associate Liberalism with open-mindedness, Liberalism may promote freedom of thought, but having access to those things or sharing those qualities don't make you a Liberal. Just as being a responsible person who serves their country doesn't make you a Conservative.

"Christ might be such a person. In his time, rejecting the legalism of the religious powers and dismissing the authority of the state powers, he advocated at least some principles of liberalism with "you are your brother's keeper" without being political."

Do believe the public should be educated about the dangers of smoking? Not really a political matter when you think about it - doesn't involve the government telling people what they can or can't do, not in conflict with any of the mainstream political philosophies that are popular among Americans. Now suppose I said to you, "Vision, because you believe the public should be educated about the dangers of smoking, you are a Fascist".

If we apply the same kind of logic you used, theoretically this would be true. Nazi Germany was the first nation to develop a program outlining the dangers of smoking. Just because you share some of the "principles" of Fascism, that doesn't make you a Fascist does it?

  • 2 votes
#1.80 - Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:13 PM EDT
VisionCoast

Jesus Christ on the other hand consistently argues from his divinity and the existence of a God. You've made this distinction accidently but in doing so you've demonstrated my point perfectly.

No, I don't think so. The distinction to which I referred is that Christ could be regarded as an adherent to at least some liberal philosophies without making them political. Religious, yes. Political, no.

I am a Socialist, living in a Liberal society.

Are you in the U.S.? I ask because I am in the U.S., and I don't consider this country liberal...not compared to its counterparts, anyway. That may be because I consider socialism to be liberal. Maybe I'm confusing the two.

I am a Socialist, living in a Liberal society. My actions are constrained by Liberalism...

Governmentally, collectively, yes, I understand the constraints. But I don't see how this would apply personally. Don't you still have a wide latitude to put your socialist beliefs into practice, even if it's not all-encompassing? Does such a limitation cancel out the rest? Does it have to be so pure to be true?

Regardless of how I act, regardless of the constraints placed upon me, Socialism is still Socialism. My open-mindedness, my intellectual freedom, and altrustism are not the product of an adherence to or an agreement with Liberalism.

I don't mean to suggest that those characteristics belong only to liberalism. In fact, they may be more the byproduct, or cause, of anarchism.

This is no different than saying "Only Conservatives are responsible" or "Only Right-Wingers serve their country". We may associate Liberalism with open-mindedness, Liberalism may promote freedom of thought, but having access to those things or sharing those qualities don't make you a Liberal.

For the purpose of this discussion, yes, I generalized, assuming the general blueprint of the philosophy would apply to its advocates. However, I recognize the deviations from the general.

Do believe the public should be educated about the dangers of smoking? Not really a political matter when you think about it - doesn't involve the government telling people what they can or can't do, not in conflict with any of the mainstream political philosophies that are popular among Americans.

This subject has political significance simply because of the revenue it involves in both private and public sectors. But I won't digress further.

I'm of the opinion that such education should be available but not mandatory.

Just because you share some of the "principles" of Fascism, that doesn't make you a Fascist does it?

I don't share that particular principle, but if I did, no, it wouldn't make me a fascist. Just as I suggest that holding to liberal principles doesn't have to make me political.

I do believe I drank my own weight in peppermint schnapps; so forgive me if I don't give particularly coherent responses to the points of your post.

No problem. I can relate.

  • 3 votes
#1.81 - Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:31 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"No, I don't think so. The distinction to which I referred is that Christ could be regarded as an adherent to at least some liberal philosophies without making them political. Religious, yes. Political, no."

I understand what you were referring to, but the point was that in the process of seperating religion and liberalism you referenced you demonstrated why we don't group them together in the first place and in turn why Christ was not a Liberal. A principle is not Liberal simply because a Liberal supports it. A person is not a Liberal simply because a Liberal supports it. A great variety of people from different belief systems can support the same principles and same people. What makes a person a Liberal is not necessarily what they support but more of why they support it.

Liberalism is the product of an Enlightenment response to conflicts of a religious nature. Where religious institutions argued we must obey "dogmas" like "thou shalt not steal" because god willed it, Liberals argued that we should obey it because it violated the rights of our fellow man. A shared principle, two different answers which produced wildly different consequences. A shared principle, one justified by religion and one justified by political beliefs. A shared principle, one Christian and one Liberal.

Lets try this another way. I want you to make an argument for me, that all Liberals would agree with, that justifies why I should be allowed to speak my mind as I see fit - without using words related to freedom or my rights.

"Are you in the U.S.? I ask because I am in the U.S., and I don't consider this country liberal...not compared to its counterparts, anyway. That may be because I consider socialism to be liberal. Maybe I'm confusing the two."

The United States is Liberal, people just don't understand the differences between Social Democracy and Liberalism any more. Socialism is certainly not Liberal - the first Socialist thinkers derided Liberalism as both self-serving and classist.

"Governmentally, collectively, yes, I understand the constraints. But I don't see how this would apply personally. Don't you still have a wide latitude to put your socialist beliefs into practice, even if it's not all-encompassing? Does such a limitation cancel out the rest? Does it have to be so pure to be true?"

Nope. One of the fundamental beliefs of a Socialist is that if my neighbor is not free, then I am not free. The very structure of a Liberal society ensures that we will never have Democracy, that those around me will never be completely free. As such I will spend my life pamphleting, writing, speaking, organizing - these things aren't the practice of Socialism. Would Jesus Christ been the same man if he'd been forced to preach through the lens of the Jewish establishment? Would his message have been as successful even though it wasn't "all encompassing"? No.

This is off the subject though. You were attempted to argue that a man's Liberalism, living in a society where Liberalism is not the status quo, is distinct from a Liberal establishment because the politics of Liberalism are in effect. I am arguing that such a distinction is meaningless because if it weren't for the constraints imposed by society, the political basis of Liberalism would immediately assert itself.

Liberal's believe in inalienable rights. If a Liberal was given a slave, he would release that slave because he thought it was the right thing to do - thats a moral perspective. But when you inquire as to the reason why he thinks that is the right thing to do, his response about freedoms and inalienable rights is a totally political one. The politics is there whether we preceive it or outwardly express it our not.

"I don't mean to suggest that those characteristics belong only to liberalism. In fact, they may be more the byproduct, or cause, of anarchism."

But that is what you're saying. That is what Matt Rock is saying. By qualifying something as specifically Liberalism based on those characteristics, you are implying that you have chosen it as Liberal precisely because other philosophies don't espouse those characteristics.

"For the purpose of this discussion, yes, I generalized, assuming the general blueprint of the philosophy would apply to its advocates. However, I recognize the deviations from the general."

And an argument based on a generalization is a false one. Matt doesn't just base his argument on generalizations, he arrograntly glorifies his belief system based on generalizations.

"I don't share that particular principle, but if I did, no, it wouldn't make me a fascist."

Why. Why wouldn't that you make you a Fascist?

Jesus cares for the poor.

Liberals care for the poor.

Therefore Jesus is a Liberal.

Fascists support smoking education.

You educate "support" smoking education.

Therefore you are a Fascist.

  • 2 votes
#1.82 - Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:45 PM EDT
VisionCoast

A principle is not Liberal simply because a Liberal supports it. A person is not a Liberal simply because a Liberal supports it.

Ideological deviations are a given...at least until we all become automatons. I'm assuming the underpinnings are the driving force.

What makes a person a Liberal is not necessarily what they support but more of why they support it.

You're parsing out details I've never thought about. Wouldn't the "why" be the foundation of the "what"? For example, I'm pro-choice because I don't support meddling in another's private life when it's not affecting other people's lives. Now, we could say that abortion will effect other people because of the life that wasn't realized, thereby creating a long-term cause-and-effect reality. Maybe the aborted person would've been a scientific genius and humankind will suffer the loss of that brilliance. Where do we cut it off?

Liberalism is the product of an Enlightenment response to conflicts of a religious nature. Where religious institutions argued we must obey "dogmas" like "thou shalt not steal" because god willed it, Liberals argued that we should obey it because it violated the rights of our fellow man. A shared principle, two different answers which produced wildly different consequences. A shared principle, one justified by religion and one justified by political beliefs. A shared principle, one Christian and one Liberal.

Wait. I'm aware of the genesis of liberalism, but I don't agree (yet) that a personal ethical system that says people shouldn't steal automatically becomes political. Unless you're saying that law is inherently political. Which leads to...

I want you to make an argument for me, that all Liberals would agree with, that justifies why I should be allowed to speak my mind as I see fit - without using words related to freedom or my rights.

I tried and can't. As part of the community of life, we are entitled to certain rights, including the right to express our humanity. The prism through which I see this subject is that repression of those rights is what I regard as political, not the other way around. How is it that expression of what we are born to—our humanity—has to be a question of politics? That, to me, seems like telling a frog that his croak is political when, in actuality, it's nothing more than the reality of what he is.

The United States is Liberal...

I think the United States is, or has become, fascist.

people just don't understand the differences between Social Democracy and Liberalism any more

I have a lot to learn about this distinction.

One of the fundamental beliefs of a Socialist is that if my neighbor is not free, then I am not free.

Agreed, absolutely. Does that make me a socialist? Probably not. I think it's time for me to drop back for self-examination.

The very structure of a Liberal society ensures that we will never have Democracy, that those around me will never be completely free.

Is this because liberalism embraces capitalism? Isn't your statement true of socialism by way of its economic system (read: collective ownership)? How can all members of any group comprised of divergent thoughts be completely free? Isn't this also imperfect where personal freedom is concerned?

You were attempted to argue that a man's Liberalism, living in a society where Liberalism is not the status quo, is distinct from a Liberal establishment because the politics of Liberalism are in effect. I am arguing that such a distinction is meaningless because if it weren't for the constraints imposed by society, the political basis of Liberalism would immediately assert itself.

Perhaps that's a symptom of humankind, to establish individual belief systems if the ability to do so exists. Maybe then the question becomes, what is the source of confidence in the systems individuals wish to advance?

Liberal's believe in inalienable rights. If a Liberal was given a slave, he would release that slave because he thought it was the right thing to do - thats a moral perspective. But when you inquire as to thereason why he thinks that is the right thing to do, his response about freedoms and inalienable rights is a totally political one. The politics is there whether we preceive it or outwardly express it our not.

Well, I've heard a lot of conservatives say they believe in inalienable rights. Was Jefferson a liberal? I'm sure you know why I ask, because his implied sense of morality didn't cause him to jeopardize his economic future. But further... Being a product of modern times, I can't say I'm free of political pollution, however, it seems to me that certain aspects of being human are undeniable, or absolute. We think, we reason. To try to shut this down seems akin to trying to stop breathing. It's what we are. I can't see the political connection to what seems innate.

But that is what you're saying. That is what Matt Rock is saying. By qualifying something as specificallyLiberalism based on those characteristics, you are implying that you have chosen it as Liberal precisely because other philosophies don't espouse those characteristics.

The comments are getting too profuse for me to follow every detail at this point, but if I said that a particular characteristic is uniquely liberal, I spoke incorrectly. Surely, there's cross-pollination of ideologies.

And an argument based on a generalization is a false one.

OK, I agree. But now we get down into degrees, don't we? Ten Degrees of Liberalism = Two Degrees of Conservatism or some such equation? Or is it that people deliberately deceive? "I'm a constitutionalist! Gay marriage? No!" OR "Free speech is a right! But not for the KKK!"

Where do we go with the contradictions of those who claim to be this or that? How do we deal with it in our own beliefs? Or is this where intellectual maturity steps up to cause us to question what we believe and why we believe so?

Why wouldn't that you make you a Fascist?

Jesus cares for the poor. Liberals care for the poor. Therefore Jesus is a Liberal.

Fascists support smoking education. You educate "support" smoking education. Therefore you are a Fascist.

You're putting words in my mouth (I think so anyway, at this point). I said Christ showed some adherence to liberal philosophies, not that he was a liberal. (Actually, now I think his "love thy brother" admonition is socialist, not liberal. See what you've done?)

Did I suggest that one has to believe all of a particular ideology to be labeled as such? I've been confused on this issue for a long time, sometimes referring to myself as a conservative-liberal and at other times as a liberal-conservative. Now I think I'm neither.

  • 3 votes
#1.83 - Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:45 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"Ideological deviations are a given...at least until we all become automatons. I'm assuming the underpinnings are the driving force.

I'm not talking about ideological deviations. I support the poor, Liberals support the poor. Liberals believe the poor are helped by the State, I believe the State perpetuates poverty. Thats not a deviation, thats an entirely different perspective.

"You're parsing out details I've never thought about. Wouldn't the "why" be the foundation of the "what"? For example, I'm pro-choice because I don't support meddling in another's private life when it's not affecting other people's lives."

There is an organization out there called VHEMT - they are pro-choice. Not because of some concern for people's privacy. If you died tomorrow and the next day I wrote an article saying you were a great example of VHEMT principles, you wouldn't be able to voice a dissenting opinion. Now go to Wikipedia, look up what VHEMT is about, and tell me that I'd be in the right when saying you'd endorse them because you endorse abortions.

" Where do we cut it off?"

And there we delve into the unique ways in which Liberalism answers. There are plenty of groups out there who would oppose abortion not because they don't believe in privacy but because they extend the consequences of abortion beyond the immediate concerns - CRAP I have to go. More later.

#1.84 - Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:54 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

All right, lets try this again. I may be alittle charged, I just read an article about the police - and I really hate the police.

"Wait. I'm aware of the genesis of liberalism, but I don't agree (yet) that a personal ethical system that says people shouldn't steal automatically becomes political. Unless you're saying that law is inherently political. Which leads to"

I am not arguing that any belief system that says people shouldn't steal is automatically political - quite the opposite; part of the implication of the distinction that I have made is that Christ's beliefs were not political while a Liberal's are. Its a matter of the reasoning behind believing a person shouldn't steal that determines whether or not the belief is political - if you believe what you believe for political reasons, then yes its a political belief.

"I tried and can't. As part of the community of life, we are entitled to certain rights, including the right to express our humanity. The prism through which I see this subject is that repression of those rights is what I regard as political, not the other way around."

Of course you can't - because you cannot divorce your personal beliefs from the political origins from which they are derived. What makes a person a Liberal is not their belief in the freedom of speech or a similar value but rather their belief in Liberalism and all the very specific and inter-related philosophical concepts in thereof.

If you went back in time and said to Jesus Christ, "Jesus, it is my right to say the name of God frivilously for whatever shallow reason I like (thus violating the 7th Commandment)", Jesus wouldn't even know how to respond to you. The idea that you could do something independent of what the Bible commands would be foreign to him. The idea that you have specific set of things you are allowed to do simply because you're a human would be bizarre to him. The idea that you can take a position of moral authority regarding an individual's behavior without reference to a higher power would be laughible. This is precisely because Liberalism (or more specifically the concept of inalienable rights) did not exist during Christ's time and because it was NOT an operating of his belief system. To Christ you would not have inalienable rights, you would have god-given rights. Your "right" to speak your mind would end where God - and by extension HE - where he says it will end. Conversely, Liberalism allows no man to determine the scope of another man's rights.

"How is it that expression of what we are born to—our humanity—has to be a question of politics? That, to me, seems like telling a frog that his croak is political when, in actuality, it's nothing more than the reality of what he is."

You're omitting the fact that we have concluded that we have particular rights. Its a socially agreed upon conclusion but a relative conclusion nonetheless. There are societies which do not hold such concepts, there are societies which grant their members a different set of rights, there are societies which grant their members a different degree of rights. To us, Liberalism is so inherent and obvious that it seems as natural as a Frog's croak, but before Liberalism overthrew the Feudalistic mindset it was certainly not so. Paine, Rousseau, Locke, et al. all had to fight for these ideas in the political arena and fight to get the masses to embrace them. While the success of Liberalism has pretty much silenced all critical assessments of its philosophical underpinnings, you can still read the works of major Conservative thinkers who wholeheartedly argued that rights are not as natural to man as a croak is to a frog.

This battle continues today. American Liberals are fighting politically to expand the definition of our Rights to include the disenfranchised so that in another two hundred years the idea that gays, women, or minorities are equal would not seem like a political statement. Hell, your descendents may question my descendents when they claim that such an idea is purely political rather than ethical.

"I think the United States is, or has become, fascist."

You've inadvertantly touched upon something I wanted to talk about. A major component of this discussion is the disconnect between Matt's ignorant conception of Liberalism and the actual theoretical reality of Liberalism. We live in a world where millions of people are grouped together through commonly shared beliefs that the media defines as "Liberalism and Conservativism". We come to view these things not as political philosophies with specific conceptions of how the government should be arranged but rather as a collection of moral positions and perceptions of the world. What the has inevitability resulted in is a mass-inclination towards taking very general characteristics and taking them as a sign of very specific belief-systems.

When a person is allowed to take a general characteristic and in turn apply its consequence to whatever belief system they happen to associate it with you develop a circumstance where the origins of that consequences are unclear, the definition of that belief system is subjective, and people find themselves answering for things they do not agree with or support.

Of all the features of American Politics, this is the most prominent. All sides consistently feel like their opposition is baselessly grouping them in with people they don't agree with or holding them responsible for things they wouldn't have supported in the first place. Barack Obama is a Socialist, Muslims are terrorists, TEA Partiers are racist, George Bush is a Fascist. The product of this inclination is an inability to even have a discussion of these topic matters precisely because there is no common language, no common definition, that all sides can use as a starting point.

The only way to overcome this is to stop associating people by basic commonalities, stop defining terms by relative perspectives, and ground the debate in history and in empirical materials. That is what I have attempted to do in this discussion. I have rejected Matt's emotional and subjective associations in favor of an objective presentation of historical reality. When Liberalism is defined by Liberal philosophy rather than hokey-pokey meta-philosophies that transcend time, there is a basis for discussion. When Socialism is defined by Socialist philosophy rather than punditry and a fear of government, then there is a basis for discussion. And to bring my point full-circle, when Fascism is defined by Fascist philosophy then there is a basis for discussion.

The United States is not Fascist. It may be authoritarian, it may have overtones of religion, it may be oppressive, it may indoctrinate the masses, it may be xenophobic and nationalistic, it may serve an upper class but in truth these are only commonalities the US shares with Fascist states; they are not indicative of a common philosophy or a shared approach to organizing society. Fascism was an intellectual response to the preceived failings of Liberalism and Marxism and in turn countries like the United States. It rejected the core elements of our system and in turn it criticizes our system along many lines which you might actually find yourself in agreement with - but that only further emphasizes the importance of the "why" rather than the shared belief.

"Is this because liberalism embraces capitalism? Isn't your statement true of socialism by way of its economic system (read: collective ownership)? How can all members of any group comprised of divergent thoughts be completely free? Isn't this also imperfect where personal freedom is concerned?"

Liberal Democracy by definition asserts that we need representatives to represent the will of the People and work on their behalf. While I would personally dismiss Liberal Democracy as a dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie, the point is largely moot in the context of my original statement. So long as we have a Liberal Democracy, we will have a government that acts independently of the will of the people. So long as the government is an independent agent we will ultimately all be subjects of its will.

To address your concerns about Socialism, your questions only further demonstrate that these matters are political ones. I believe in freedom, you believe in freedom but when it comes to the practical manifestations of these moral beliefs we both express differing perspectives rooted in politics.

What does it mean for a man to be free? The Right-Wing says that a free man is a man who acts and lives by his own will, independent of any constrains imposed upon him by outsiders. In this sense living in any society is inherently unfree; we must compromise out will to meet those around us in nearly every facet of our existence. Socialism contends that collective ownership is just another one of these compromises we should make as the consequence of making such a compromise, just as the consequence of compromising one's "freedom" to partake in society, is inherently more desirable than refraining from compromising at all. Even then, Socialism attempts to make this compromise as voluntary as possible. Where a Capitalist society says to me "labor for the Capitalist or starve on the streets", a Socialist society says to me "you may labor for the benefit of your fellow man or not, we will provide you with what is necessary to live. But if you choose not to compromise your desires as we have done for you, know that you will never enjoy the full benefits our society has to offer".

"Perhaps that's a symptom of humankind, to establish individual belief systems if the ability to do so exists. Maybe then the question becomes, what is the source of confidence in the systems individuals wish to advance?"

It is man's nature to establish a belief system but it is the interaction and debate between the individual's belief system and societies as a whole that encompasses what it is meant by the term "Politics". As for the source of our belief systems, thats a subjective matter as well. God? Genetics? Social conditioning? Maybe all of the above.

"Well, I've heard a lot of conservatives say they believe in inalienable rights. Was Jefferson a liberal? I'm sure you know why I ask, because his implied sense of morality didn't cause him to jeopardize his economic future. But further... Being a product of modern times, I can't say I'm free of political pollution, however, it seems to me that certain aspects of being human are undeniable, or absolute. We think, we reason. To try to shut this down seems akin to trying to stop breathing. It's what we are. I can't see the political connection to what seems innate."

Jefferson was a member of the Bourgeoisie. Class interest always supercedes political ideology - atleast according to how us Marxists understand the world. The "Liberal" I suggested in my hypothetical, a perfectly consistent application of Liberal beliefs. I wouldn't expect such consistently from real Liberals as Liberalism as a whole insufficiently developed to deal with moral dillemmas like slavery.

You're right, there are things humans do which we cannot stop doing. But nothing about having those qualities means the State, the Private Sector, or the Individual must recognize, respect, or allow those qualities. Conservatives talk about inalienable rights and then say a illegal immigrants doesn't deserve any rights because our government doesn't recognize them as citizens (thusly implying that rights are granted by the government, not inherent to mankind). That doesn't mean they don't believe in inalienable rights - it instead demonstrates that there is no such thing as a right the government or some entity can't take away from you.

"Where do we go with the contradictions of those who claim to be this or that? How do we deal with it in our own beliefs? Or is this where intellectual maturity steps up to cause us to question what we believe and why we believe so?"

http://biasandbelief.pbworks.com/Bias-Blind-Spot

In a nutshell, being contradictory and blind to our biases is as human as breathing. If we ever experience an "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" type scenario, atleast we will know Matt is plenty human. I'll get to the last bit of your post later.

#1.85 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:55 PM EDT
VisionCoast

What a relief... I finally comprehend the scope of what you've been saying. In separating the ethical, political and religious principles in the way you have, this makes sense to me. In particular, this:

You're omitting the fact that we have concluded that we have particular rights.

It's the damn perspective again. How is it that it's so easy to lose sight of the foundations that set our beliefs? I try always to remember this, and I obviously forget...too often. And it changes everything.

This battle continues today. American Liberals are fighting politically to expand the definition of our Rights to include the disenfranchised...

The crisis in health care has brought this to reality. But the question I have now is, how do I know if I'm a liberal or something else altogether? Hell, I don't even know where to find reliable standards.

When a person is allowed to take a general characteristic and in turn apply its consequence to whatever belief system they happen to associate it with you develop a circumstance where the origins of that consequences are unclear, the definition of that belief system is subjective, and people find themselves answering for things they do not agree with or support.

Guilty.

Of all the features of American Politics, this is the most prominent.

If so, this would explain the mass confusion I have about who is what and that I see demonstrated by others. I hate it. It muddies the waters instead of clarifying fundamental matters that are of great importance.

The product of this inclination is an inability to even have a discussion of these topic matters precisely because there is no common language, no common definition, that all sides can use as a starting point.

In my experience, it's rare to find someone with whom I disagree who can have an honest, civil political discussion. I've been attributing this to blind devotion to a political party, but maybe it's got more to do with prevalent media, corporate-steered spoon-feeding. I don't really know.

The United States is not Fascist.

I knew you would say that, because I know the United States is not authentically fascist. I'm angry that the U.S. Supreme Court has given such powers of influence to business, that any government officials profit from it, and that any of my fellow citizens would support this oligarchy. And, just to be clear, my emotion has nothing to do with envy of the wealthy.

Fascism was an intellectual response to the preceived failings of Liberalism and Marxism and in turn countries like the United States. It rejected the core elements of our system and in turn it criticizes our system along many lines which you might actually find yourself in agreement with - but that only further emphasizes the importance of the "why" rather than the shared belief.

Fascism was an intellectual choice? I need to take some political science classes. I've always been pro-labor because of the construct in which I view business—probably because I come from a blue-collar family.

While I would personally dismiss Liberal Democracy as a dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie, the point is largely moot in the context of my original statement. So long as we have a Liberal Democracy, we will have a government that acts independently of the will of the people. So long as the government is an independent agent we will ultimately all be subjects of its will.

I agree, with much vexation. Why doesn't the majority see this by now? God knows I'm far from brilliant, and I surely recognize it.

The Right-Wing says that a free man is a man who acts and lives by his own will, independent of any constrains imposed upon him by outsiders.

The first item of protest that comes to my mind is lack of regulation of industry and the freedom of labor to organize. History reveals the devastating consequences of this idea, and I don't understand how any thinking human being would subscribe to this conviction.

Where a Capitalist society says to me "labor for the Capitalist or starve on the streets"...

I've come to despise capitalism for this very reason. Chasing money consumes too much of our time, disallowing us the freedom to pursue the very things that make life worth living.

...a Socialist society says to me "you may labor for the benefit of your fellow man or not, we will provide you with what is necessary to live. But if you choose not to compromise your desires as we have done for you, know that you will never enjoy the full benefits our society has to offer".

I can imagine the abject horror this idea would bring out through a perceived sense of loss of freedom when, in fact, it's far more unshackled. If I recall correctly, most indigenous peoples lived fruitfully through communal systems. We are interdependent anyway.

Jefferson was a member of the Bourgeoisie. Class interest always supercedes political ideology...

This is the first time I've heard someone level such a charge at one of our revered forefathers. It's intuitive while it's practical. I should've realized this before.

Conservatives talk about inalienable rights and then say a illegal immigrants doesn't deserve any rights because our government doesn't recognize them as citizens (thusly implying that rights are granted by the government, not inherent to mankind). That doesn't mean they don't believe in inalienable rights - it instead demonstrates that there is no such thing as a right the government or some entity can't take away from you.

Thanks for drilling to the core on that one. The dichotomy you expose in this single thought is fundamental.

I'll spend some time with the Bias Blind Spot link you gave. Thanks.

I really hate the police.

(Something we share now.)

  • 2 votes
#1.86 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:29 PM EDT
Anatoly-Rex

"What a relief... I finally comprehend the scope of what you've been saying."

Its very counter to the ways in which we are encouraged to look at the world on a daily basis. If you find it useful, I'm sure you'll develop your ability to look at things in the manner I have outlined and in turn gather a more concrete understanding of the issues.

"It's the damn perspective again. How is it that it's so easy to lose sight of the foundations that set our beliefs? I try always to remember this, and I obviously forget...too often. And it changes everything."

Liberalism is partly founded on the concept of the social contract; the idea that we have agreed upon our current system and therefore participate in it. While at some point in our past we did partly understand the reality of Liberalism and we did make a conscious decision to live under it, the reality of today is that you and I never made that decision; which is why it is easy to forget the foundations and the reasons why things are the way they are. When a person is making a decision themselves, they can recall the reasons why picked the path that they did. When a person is merely trying to understand and rationalize the decisions that have been made for them, they can only imagine the reasoning involved.

Thats another component of American politics; its all imaginary. We grow up in a world where all this terminology is floating around and we're forced to arrange it in a manner that is consistent with what we see. The problem is that because our system does not require us to test our assumptions, to refine our reasoning skills on a daily basis (in relation to things like politics) we are inclined to develop a false sense of security based on conclusions arrived at through an undeveloped skill set. Direct Democracy fixes that problem but thats a different topic...

"The crisis in health care has brought this to reality. But the question I have now is, how do I know if I'm a liberal or something else altogether? Hell, I don't even know where to find reliable standards."

I've outlined many of the actual structures of Liberalism to you in my posts on this seed. But as you can see from the difficulty in translating these things to other people, as you can see from Matt's rigid and close-minded adherence to his own misinformed conceptions, understanding and properly applying these terms isn't necessarily useful.

I spent decades researching, investigating, and reflecting on my beliefs before I came to understand what Socialism is and why I am a Socialist. But when I come on Newsvine and say "I am a Socialist" theydon't hear "Democracy, Freedom, Rejecting Exploitation, or non-Government". They hear "Dictatorship, Tyranny, Slavery, and Big Government". Ultimately the practical meanings of these terms are not defined by truth or historical reality, they are defined by however the masses at large perceive them.

My beliefs require that I rehabilitate Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, Radicalism, Anti-Capitalism, and Democracy. I can't talk about what I believe without those words coming up. But you have the capacity to argue what you believe without associating with any term or conversely changing your political affliation based on how the masses think of that affliation. This isn't to say you're free from understanding the realities of these terms; disarming ideologies like Matt (who are really just talking out of their asses and I can't defend themselves against history) is necessary for us to make progress on our problems. But it is to say that you don't need to lose any sleep over finding the "correct" label for yourself.

"In my experience, it's rare to find someone with whom I disagree who can have an honest, civil political discussion. I've been attributing this to blind devotion to a political party, but maybe it's got more to do with prevalent media, corporate-steered spoon-feeding. I don't really know."

Having honest discussions requires a degree of objectivity and willingness to admit fault. In terms of politics, peope who develop those characteristics inevitability develop a clearer understanding of our world - coming to similar conclusions if disagreements are found. Most people argue politics to acheive a particular goal but some come in search of understanding. Those who are around simply to crush the competition rarely need to look critically at themselves.

"I'm angry that the U.S. Supreme Court has given such powers of influence to business, that any government officials profit from it, and that any of my fellow citizens would support this oligarchy. And, just to be clear, my emotion has nothing to do with envy of the wealthy."

I understand that. But its very, very important to avoid identifying the US with Fascism for one reason in particular: Fascism failed. As a means of controlling the population, indoctrinating the population, and consolidating wealth and power, Fascism was an unstable model that could not withstand the rigors of external and internal criticism/pressure. While there are many elements who have the same aims as Fascists, they will not be so stupid as to emulate the methodology of a failed regime. When we associate our problems with Fascism, we inadvertantly train the population to look for the characteristics of a Fascist; characteristics which are very specific, characteristics someone looking not to get caught will avoid. As the masses look for these charateristics and argue about their applicability to our leaders, they inadvertantly ignore and miss the signs of new forms of tyranny. That is the more sophisticated and evolved way in which minds are controlled. If you reflect on the consequences that kind of rhetoric has on our political debate and our partisan divisions, when you compare it to the actual amount of change it brings, you'll see my point.

"Fascism was an intellectual choice? I need to take some political science classes. I've always been pro-labor because of the construct in which I view business—probably because I come from a blue-collar family."

Absolutely. Fascist economics and philosophy were very well developed and very convincing to the people of the time. While we know its its consequences today, you have to put yourself in the shoes of people who were introduced to it without the information we have today. These were the days when people were just starting to experience the ugliness of modern politics, when secularism was pushing religion out of the picture, when World War had ravaged the lives of countless individuals, when Capitalism had produced economic depression like never before. Many people of the world were beginning to fell like something was disappearing from their lives, that the world was heading in a scary direction. Italy, Spain, Germany, these places were once powerful centers of Europe that had over a few hundred years watched their influence dwindle into near nothingness. Today it seems like Ancient history but to them these wounds were just as well-known and painful as WWII is to us today. One of the seldom appreciated aspects of Fascism is the overarching theme of restoration it presented to the masses - it was very powerful idea.

Fascism was very inventive and produced a number of alternatives to problems that other forms of thought hadn't considered - in truth some elements of Fascism have been incorporated to our societies quite successfully; albeit in a neutered form. Fascism produced scientific breakthroughs, economic juggernauts, and other benefits to societies at large. As did Slavery. As did Feudalism. As did Capitalism. As did Marxist-Leninism. However regardless of what any ideology contributes to the world, regardless of how popular it may be, regardless of how long it may be around, all systems are dependent upon the accuracy of their underlying precepts and in that respect Fascism was failed. Its fundamentally flawed basis produced misery and death in the highest orders. As did Slavery. As did Feudalism. As did Capitalism. As did Marxist-Leninism. If you are going to reject any belief system you should do so because you understand its flaws but in our society we reject a belief system without any actual understanding of its workings. There is plenty reason to despise Fascism but don't allow those reasons to prevent you from understanding it.

"I agree, with much vexation. Why doesn't the majority see this by now? God knows I'm far from brilliant, and I surely recognize it."

Its not really a matter of sight. You realize the complexity and difficulties inherent to understanding the system and whats wrong with it. It requires a careful navigation and constant vigilance to develop a picture of things that accounts for all the various details of our system and can withstand external scrutiny. The vast majority of people on Newsvine can tell you that our world is in terrible shape and that people aren't smart enough to fix it. But the vast majority of people on Newsvine aren't ready to take that assessment of the world and apply it in the due manner which will shatter their ideals. The system relies on this. Pundits, politics, religion, all supply a version of events that allows people to say "The world is @!$%#ed but so long as I do what I already believe in, things will get better". To make a very corny reference, its the real life application of the "Red Pill, Blue Pill" test. You can either continue believing that you have these indestructable rights, that a slip of paper protects you from tyranny, that millionaires you've never met know how you feel and will fight for it, that your nation is good, that major problems can be overcome by posting on the internet or standing around waving cardboard attached to a stick, that compromising your beliefs and lowering your expectations is for the greater good, and that the system will fixed one day.....or you can admit its all fairytale. That there is a nightmarish world out your window that has been hidden from you in a very clever manner and that you're practically helpless to do anything about it. When you think about it that way, I'd believe Jesus was a Liberal too.

"History reveals the devastating consequences of this idea, and I don't understand how any thinking human being would subscribe to this conviction."

When you believe people are inherently greedy and always lusting after that which they which they're too lazy to work for, its pretty easy to see how people can hold such beliefs. When you forward a belief system that is tied to history, comparative philosophy, alternative economics and sociology its hard to get your point across in a simple and intuitive manner. But when you're forwarding a belief system that appeals to people's basic emotions and superficial perceptions of the world, its easy to spread and popularize that system.

More later...

  • 2 votes
#1.87 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 5:32 PM EDT
Matt Rock

This couldn't be tiptoed around. Jesus was as liberal as the sky is blue, and if you took offense to this article, then perhaps you should revisit the New Testament. Sorry, I wanted to mention that before someone tried biting my head off :)

  • 13 votes
#2 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:41 PM EDT
bonos_rama

Hell, just the fact that he threw out the old traditions means he was the total opposite of a conservative!

  • 9 votes
#2.1 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:24 PM EDT
CAF

Christ threw out the old traditions (read errors) of spiritual thought and understanding but that often is still held onto by both sides, liberal and conservative and appropriated as political when it was relationally directed between man and God by Christ. Liberalism focuses on the Grace he spoke of mistakenly applies it socially without responsiblity for political gain and conservatives zero in on the responsibility aspect without compassion. Christ indeed focused on man's relationship with his fellow man pointing out that man's heart toward his fellow man disclosed what was in his heart regarding God. But it was not primarily governmental as God calls for individual responsibiity as well as compassion and those as they relate to as persons relationship to Himself.

  • 2 votes
#2.2 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:49 AM EDT
bonos_rama

Throwing out the old ways - throwing out tradition - is PROGRESSIVE, not conservative.

  • 6 votes
#2.3 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:37 AM EDT
Larry-304061

It certainly can't be tip-toed around, although I would disagree with your assessment. There were a few things that were factually incorrect, and I'll debate them based on the content of the bible, not necessarily my personal views.

Gay marriage - Homosexuality wasn't just prohibited in the Old Testament, it is also mentioned in Romans and Corinthians, so that puts the kibosh on that point.

Abortion - You're right that it depends on when you believe that "Human life" starts, as to if it's killing or not, but I can assure you that your point about a poor woman having a baby is flawed. The bible specifically says that it's a person's responsibility to provide for their family: "But if anyone doesn’t provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever."

Illegal Immigration - The word "Illegal" makes this one a no-brainer, but not in the way that you assumed. Jesus says that we should obey the laws of man, unless they conflict with God's law. Our country has a legal and illegal path to residency, and although we shouldn't be cruel to those that come illegally, if we were to follow the law, we'd return them to their rightful owners.

Evolution - Can't argue what Jesus thought about Evolution based on the Bible, it wasn't even a theory when Jesus was alive.

Spending & National Debt - Jesus' contempt for tax collectors and his comparisons between tax collectors and heathens/prostitutes makes it clear what he thought of taxes as well as what he would have thought of Bush's tax cuts. He also says what he thinks of wanting what someone else earns or has, it's one of the 10 Commandments and that's inarguably disallowed.

You mischaracterized Jesus' actions in Matthew 21:12. He wasn't lashing out at free enterprise, but instead had a problem with the fact that they set up the market in a temple. "It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a ‘den of robbers."

Liberals hold fast to the belief that everyone should be allowed to live as they please, to follow their own moral compass, and that there shouldn't be a single definition for what's right, which doesn't agree with what Jesus said, so he could hardly be called a liberal.

Additionally, conservatives are more charitable, both with their time and money, so since Jesus was a giving person, he would have had to be a conservative even if you left out everything else.

  • 1 vote
#2.4 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:36 PM EDT
Auteur 1536

You're right that it depends on when you believe that "Human life" starts

Well if that so-called "human life" dies in the womb then was it really life to begin with?

Homosexuality wasn't just prohibited in the Old Testament, it is also mentioned in Romans and Corinthians

You have tha passage(s) where homosexuality is [clearly] mentioned?

  • 2 votes
#2.5 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:58 PM EDT
Larry-304061

Auteur,

I'm not going to speculate about when life begins, it's not the topic. 1 Corinthians 6:9, Romans 1:26 through 28 for your second question. I'll not argue the merits of those passages with you though, I'm just showing you what exists.

#2.6 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:29 PM EDT
Auteur 1536

You haven't shown anything.

I'm not going to speculate about when life begins

It's mentioned in the article so it is a small part of the topic.

  • 1 vote
#2.7 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:26 PM EDT
randyjlb

Matt what did you do. The cons are really taking offense to have JC considered liberal. Its got them in such a panic because I think they may realize WJWD is be more liberal and look after his fellow human. All this hate is not going to end pretty.

I for one have always thought Jesus would be a Democrat if he came back today but in today's climate he would be "crucified" for his beliefs.

I think we have many Christians who believe they can act any way they want and do what ever they want because they are under the assumption that all you have to do is have faith and believe he was the son of God and came to save us. I think this is Fail thinking...he wants us to do more than just believing.

  • 1 vote
#2.8 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:18 PM EDT
Phyllis Kunz

Jesus was a revolutionary and I believe with the coming of Christ the revolution he

started will change the balance of power and the rendering of Caesar.

  • 1 vote
#3 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:03 PM EDT
Mister Joshua

I don't view him as being remotely political. He said pay your taxes and obey the laws of the land and be an example of Christian love. It sounds to me like he exalted the individual rather than the community in terms of charity, which is what charitiable conservatives do.

he didn't expect people to live by the Old Testament; he was truly progressive

Absolutely not. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, "Think not that I come to destroy the law or the Prophets: I do not come to destroy the law but rather so that the law shall be fullfilled." If the law of Moses and God says that homosexuality is wrong, then it is still wrong and Jesus would know that.

That being said, I agree with you in that Jesus would not condone hypocritical acts of violence in the name of the law, such as murdering abortion doctors and harassing gays and other people. But let's not forget what Jesus said to the adultress after he saved her from stoning: "Go and sin no more."

And to be perfectly honest with you, many of today's liberals (many of whom are atheists or irreligious) would see Jesus committed to an insane asylum for claiming to be the Messiah. If not that, then they would most certainly accuse him of bigotry and intolerance for claiming (as he did multiple times) that He is the only way to salvation.

We obviously disagree here, but I don't like the idea of labeling the Son of God, the Savior of all people, in political terms. It's demeaning.

  • 4 votes
#4 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:32 PM EDT
Matt Rock

Again, liberalism is a social philosophy that molds into the framework of governance, not the other way around. As I pointed out in the article, Jesus probably wouldn't have voted, but if he did feel compelled to do so -- if he chose to vote, hypothetically -- who would he vote for? A conservative fundamentalist who wants to build a wall between the United States and Mexico? Who rallies to shut down a bill that would provide health care to 9/11's heroes because paying for it would mean the closure of corporate loopholes? Who invokes Christ's name in an effort to drum support for his greedy ends? I think not.

And to be perfectly honest with you, many of today's liberals (many of whom are atheists or irreligious) would see Jesus committed to an insane asylum for claiming to be the Messiah.

I'm sure most Christians would probably do the same. Really, if a guy sprouted up in the middle east claiming to be Jesus Christ, how many people would really believe him? How many would attempt to prove it? Most people would probably just laugh and change the channel. He'd end up on The Daily Show and Keith Olbermann's Oddball segment well before he had a chance to save the world, and the folks at Fox News would probably do a story about him that was far less flattering than comedy permits.

  • 5 votes
#4.1 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:52 PM EDT
Concerned Citizen-1303521

Absolutely not. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, "Think not that I come to destroy the law or the Prophets: I do not come to destroy the law but rather so that the law shall be fullfilled." If the law of Moses and God says that homosexuality is wrong, then it is still wrong and Jesus would know that.

Cut and paste, as usual.

He says in one sentence that the law won't change until they are fulfilled and right next to it says he has come to fulfill them.

He doesn't abolish the law, because he life is the point of the law, they do not become invalidated as a concept, they are just no longer the rules to live (and suffer) by.

And Matt.... the Bush tax cuts? you even quoted where he says pay your taxes. They are an agreement between you and another person (the government), honor your agreement.

Also, in the unlikely scenario that Jesus had the inclination to vote (as you said) I highly doubt Jesus would have voted Democrat (certainly not Republican, but I doubt Democrat). From his words, he seems like a very intelligent and moral person who wouldn't allow himself to vote for anyone who didn't explicitly promise to end human rights abuses practiced by our government (as opposed to Democrats who are the party who just commits a little less than their competition).

If I had to bet, I'd say he'd go third party.

  • 2 votes
#4.2 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:52 PM EDT
Matt Rock

And Matt.... the Bush tax cuts? you even quoted where he says pay your taxes. They are an agreement between you and another person (the government), honor your agreement.

Of course, but that's a bit of a moot point, isn't it? The Bush tax cuts increased our total deficit by a staggering amount, which in turn caused poverty, and I'd certainly hope that a messiah would look at the bigger picture, wouldn't he? And to ammend that, the Bush tax cuts favored the rich at the expense of the poor, which shows a sharp contrast to what Jesus preached, doesn't it?

  • 4 votes
#4.3 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:37 PM EDT
JJM-1019980

Who's this Jesus guy your talking about? Did some one just make him up? Is he really a historic figure? Is he mentioned in the writings of his time. The Romans recorded everything, they were fanatical about records, is there any mention of his life and death in those records. Jesus is liberal because we made him liberal. Jesus is political because we made him political. After all we created him in our own image.

  • 4 votes
#5 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:51 PM EDT
Anathema6205

lol. Good point.

Personally, I think Jesus was actually a school of thought; a group of people that carried those beliefs and were united under a pen name, so to speak...like Plato or Confucius.

There may have never been a REAL Plato, just a school of thought that was united under that name.

  • 1 vote
#5.1 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:29 PM EDT
Matt Rock

Sorry to get off-topic, but wouldn't you say Socrates might be mythical, since Plato was his alleged student? I don't mean to get caught up on minor details, but I thought that was worth a mention. :)

  • 2 votes
#5.2 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:15 PM EDT
Anathema6205

Perhaps so, matt.

I don't doubt that there MAY have been a person named that at one time, and may have started that philosophy, but it may have been carried on and built upon by more people penning under the same name. :D

  • 2 votes
#5.3 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:45 PM EDT
Texasguy01

You forgot part 2.

Jesus in the Book of Revelation returning to the earth to take all authority and set up a government under his authority.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+19&version=KJV

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

You opinion of Jesus on abortion and gay marriage are not consistent with scripture. If his name and title are "The Word of God" (Rev, 19:13) do you really think he could oppose any scriptures?

  • 1 vote
#6 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:57 PM EDT
magnoliaave

I am glad you brought all of that out, Texas guy.

#6.1 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:35 PM EDT
Matt Rock

But in the old testament, as I pointed out in the article, he did just that, when asked if you'd save your son if he fell into a pit on the sabbath. He said the sabbath is for man... man isn't for sabbath. That's one example of Jesus taking a stand against old testament scripture.

And I hate to even go here, but we often hear the far right claim that liberals are totalitarian. If Jesus is coming back to set up a totalitarian government, doesn't that suit the argument from a conservative perspective? Or is that what you meant by that?

  • 4 votes
#6.2 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:40 PM EDT
MarkLHolland

Jesus was an intelligent teacher who knew what was right and wrong. It is a shame that Christianity chose Jesus to be a demon and not the man of God that he was intended to be.

  • 2 votes
#6.3 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:46 AM EDT
mhouse

This is what people do when they don't want to follow the God of the bible. They make one up according to their beliefs. This is dangerous Matt Rock: Because one day your going to face your maker and give an account of your life. "For it's appointed for man to die once than the judgement".

  • 1 vote
#7 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:05 PM EDT
magnoliaave

mhouse, yes. People interpret the Bible as they do our Constitution. I know that everything written in scripture is not a fact. It has been through interpretation after interpretation. But, I do know what I know. God lives!

#7.1 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:24 PM EDT
Matt Rock

I believe in god, just not your god. My god doesn't have a book for sale, doesn't demand 10% of my wages, and doesn't prop up special individuals in golden palaces as moral authorities over others. No one has ever died in the defense of, or in the name of, my god. I took my morals from books older than the New Testament and younger than American Idol. I've never killed anyone, stolen anything, destroyed another person's property, or cheated on a significant other. And equally important, I've never told another person what they can or cannot believe, and I've never questioned a person's patriotism or faith unless they've presented me with a strong reason to do so. And if your god demands my absolute faith in him, or will punish me for holding an opposing view and my own beliefs, regardless of my being a moral and good person, then your god is a fascist, and I couldn't care less what they think of me.

  • 2 votes
#7.2 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:48 PM EDT
JayisunJ

I've never killed anyone,

Yes, but have you ever hated anyone or been angry at someone? Jesus said, ""You have heard that our ancestors were told, 'You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.' But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. (Matthew 5:21-22). Jesus will judge not only ones outward actions, but the inward condition of their heart.

stolen anything

Have you ever downloaded music illegally? Have you ever failed to give credit where credit is due?

or cheated on a significant other.

You may not have cheated, but Christ said, "You have heard the commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.' But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:27-28). Have you ever lusted after a woman or fantasized about one?

You see, Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but rather to enhance it by bringing out the spirit behind the law. Christians were freed from the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic law (dietary laws, clothing laws, Sabbath keeping, etc.), by Christ's direct decree, but the moral aspects remain forever.

Jesus exposed the Pharisees self-righteousness with this exposition of the spirit of the law. The Pharisees should have seen that their obedience of the letter of the law was not wrong, but it was not sufficient to gain God's favor. That can only be found in moral perfection. Nobody can live up to that standard. That is why God the Father sent God the Son Jesus Christ to live a perfect life and die as our atoning sacrifice, if we will believe and receive Him. Jesus's message was not one of need for sweeping political change, but a call to each human heart to examine thier standing before a righteous and pure Judge, before it is too late (death).

#7.3 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:02 PM EDT
Consider It

I do not want to call Jesus a liberal or even argue that point. He is a myth...a fairy tale.

I'm tired of pandering to the Christians with ideas like this. He couldn't have been a liberal because a liberal is a tangible thing.

  • 6 votes
#8 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:52 PM EDT
ArchaeuS

I'm with you on that one...

  • 3 votes
#8.1 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:01 PM EDT
Darrah, Greenville, SC

Me too.

Great job, Consider it!

  • 3 votes
#8.2 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:22 PM EDT
Mister Joshua

Consider It: Where do you get your information from? No serious historian doubts that Jesus existed. And when I say historian, I mean actual accredited experts that research based on the historical method, not just religious apologists. Get a grip man. The Christ-Myth theory is as absurd as Holocaust denial.

  • 3 votes
#8.3 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:16 PM EDT
Consider It

When I speak of Jesus I'm talking about the religious Jesus. Of course there are men named Jesus that have existed in the past as well as today. But certainly not the son of god Jesus.

I am talking about the ideal. If you want to argue that a man existed who's name was Jesus then go about your business, because that is not something I would take the time to argue against.

You should get a grip and try to consider what i'm talking about. I never mentioned a "man" of any kind.

  • 3 votes
#8.4 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:22 PM EDT
Consider It

Furthermore. Speaking of history. I would love for you point me to a "serious" historian who believed that Jesus was the son of god. Don't wast your time, because there is no evidence to prove such a theory.

Again, save the BS. If you want to argue that Jesus is an historical figure then I would point you to Joan of Arch or Ivan the Terrible; both or which or also historical figures...along with many many others. I don't see a belief structure based on them.

  • 3 votes
#8.5 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:34 PM EDT
Consider It

Or, we could go with some more modern historical figures if it pleases you. Hitler, Stalin, Husein, etc etc

  • 2 votes
#8.6 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:35 PM EDT
Darrah, Greenville, SC

I think that people are always looking for a savior or leader. At that particular time, some poor guy named Jesus probably came along and they turned him into their religious leader. Before you know it, he was probably talked into believing it. Or maybe he already thought he was-- just like a lot of other men at the time.

He wasn't born of a virgin and didn't come back from the dead.

People have to consider how things were in those days --very much like today-- by people constantly looking for someone else to take away their pain and to"forgive" them.

So I don't see that particular Jesus or any other Jesus having liberated anyone in the true sense of the word; in fact just the opposite. As far as I'm concerned, religion, especially Christianity has caused an amazing amount of harm and will continue to do so. But some people will always need to cling to their guns and / or their bibles. Whatever works...

  • 3 votes
#8.7 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:05 PM EDT
Matt Rock

I have to disagree (and we don't disagree on much!). I read the bible at an early age, and because my parents weren't pushy about religion, I was able to work out that the bible is as realistic as Mother Goose and Grimm or other fairy tales; stories that provide a person with good morals (well, some of them anyway), and nothing more. But Jesus' sayings in the bible were quite influential, not in that I wanted to run off and join a church, but because I could see my own morals played out in many of his actions. His story spoke to my own beliefs, beliefs I had before really understanding who Jesus was, so while I'm not a Christian, I have an immense amount of respect for him.

As for religious persecution, Christianity is like Communism. Good on paper, but never actually realized.

  • 2 votes
#8.8 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:20 PM EDT
Darrah, Greenville, SC

So in other words, I don't believe that there was a "Jesus",son of god, miracle worker, etc.

I thought we were going to have some fun with Matt's new idea. I didn't think we were going to see a reason for all the bible verses to call crawling out of the woodwork so soon.

  • 3 votes
#8.9 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:22 PM EDT
Darrah, Greenville, SC

Matt, you are basing your article on your assumption that the New Testament was the truth and that a particular man named Jesus said and did these things. You don't know, so evidently that's part of your "belief" system. I suppose just as atheists have a belief system. Some may believe that's how it was.( but most don't believe that's how it happened.) Even some Christians don't believe it.

I understand that you believe in the virtues. So do I. But your whole article is based on here say, beliefs, and not facts. The men who wrote the bible tended to get a little confused, to say the least. They basicallyy wrote stories that people wanted and needed to hear. And religions are always used to keep people in line.

I look forward to your next articles, but I hope to god it isn't about religion.

  • 3 votes
#8.10 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:51 PM EDT
Mister Joshua

Lewis' Trilemma: Either Jesus was a egomaniac that decieved people into treating him as the Messiah for his own gratification (liar), he was crazy and really did think he was the Messiah (lunatic), or he was telling the truth and was indeed the Son of God (truth). The first one is inconsistent with his known character and the morals presented by his message (not to mention the fact that one wouldn't suspect a fraud of willingly being crucified). The second one is inconsistent with the wisdom and wit of his teachings. Thus, the third option seems most likely.

Thus we get to the historicity of the Gospels. We can completely dismiss the notion that it is all myth for two important reasons: first, the accounts of Jesus' life and ministry are much too detailed and contain too much wisdom to have been arbitrarily invented by Jewish fishermen. Secondly, there is a complete and utter lack of motive for inventing such an amazing story. After all, virtually all of the Apostles suffered incredibly cruel and barbaric deaths as martyrs. Not the sort of thing we would expect from liars. Thus, the Gospels can be said to present a reasonably accurate picture of the teacher Jesus.

I will also point out that the one area where all four Gospels agree and concur with each other is in detailing the Resurrection of Jesus. Although they contain superficial differences, once you line them up and compare everything falls into order. It seems reasonable to conclude that the Resurrection of Jesus was a compelling enough reason for many Jews to become Christians, culminating in the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the Disciples at Pentecost and the birth of the Church, which amazingly managed to survive constant persecution from the Jewish and Roman authorities.

So really, I find the atheists' arguments about the Gospels and the Book of Acts being myth to be utterly uncompelling and frankly, ridiculous.

  • 2 votes
#8.11 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:29 AM EDT
Larry-304061

Consider It,

Jesus the man existed and did minister to people, just as the Bible said. You might not believe in God, but if you think that Jesus is a myth, you're literally disagreeing with real historical events that exist even outside of a person's belief in the Bible.

#8.12 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:46 PM EDT
Anathema6205

No serious historian doubts that Jesus existed. And when I say historian, I mean actual accredited experts that research based on the historical method, not just religious apologists. Get a grip man. The Christ-Myth theory is as absurd as Holocaust denial.

Are you listening to the creationists? Because they're the only ones claiming scientific impossibilities.

There is no official record of a man rising from the dead and into the sky.

It's an impossibility.

There is no proof that a man can walk on water.

The artifacts from that time, like the veil and such have been debunked and recreated.

Sure, you can go the "miracle" route, but considering we've seen no such thing...ever....you would have a hard time backing it with scientific evidence.

Either Jesus was a egomaniac that decieved people into treating him as the Messiah for his own gratification (liar), he was crazy and really did think he was the Messiah (lunatic), or he was telling the truth and was indeed the Son of God (truth).

Or perhaps he was a pen name for a groups' school of thought, like Plato or Confucius.

Maybe he was made up, like we make up heroes in our films and books to send a message to people. Just because there's no proof of this man existing and rising from the dead doesn't mean he his philosophies were fictional too.

the accounts of Jesus' life and ministry are much too detailed and contain too much wisdom to have been arbitrarily invented by Jewish fishermen

The creation story, the dimensions of the ark and a slew of other things were also VERY precise in it's description, but they're also a scientific impossibility...unless you believe dinosaurs and billions of other animals fit into a boat the size of three football fields, the earth is only 6,000 years old, snakes talk, man was created from clay, and woman was made out of a rib.

Besides, you'd be surprised at how much detail you can put into a story when you have a few hundred years to work on it.

there is a complete and utter lack of motive for inventing such an amazing story.

Wrong. I'm an artist. I write graphic novels, short stories and make short films.

I create stories like that all time.

The story of a man willing to sacrifice himself for the people is nothing new, and is actually pretty universal throughout all cultures.

The Toltecs had a very similar messiah that was consumed by a dragon and then resurrected a few days later...strangely enough, the Toltecs were gone long before the Conquistadors even got there to "influence" the natives with Christian literature.

After all, virtually all of the Apostles suffered incredibly cruel and barbaric deaths as martyrs

It doesn't matter if the character is fictional or not; if an IDEA is strong enough, and if the people believe it deeply enough, a person will die for their beliefs.

Have you ever read V for Vendetta, or seen the movie?

It's never about the man; it was always about the idea that he stood for.

He was a symbol.

I personally hold that message very close to my heart; and I would die for that idea.

Not the sort of thing we would expect from liars

Maybe they weren't lying; maybe they were the ones that started this school of thought.

I will also point out that the one area where all four Gospels agree and concur with each other is in detailing the Resurrection of Jesus.

But everyone else that wasn't Christian had no such record.

Convenient, don't you think? That only the christians would have proof of this?

I would think the greeks or Romans would have documented such a groundbreaking incident.

A man rising from the dead? Even if they didn't believe he was god, they would still have recorded something like that.

It seems reasonable to conclude that the Resurrection of Jesus was a compelling enough reason for many Jews to become Christians

People will die for an idea; they will kill for them. It's no surprise that they converted.

So really, I find the atheists' arguments about the Gospels and the Book of Acts being myth to be utterly uncompelling and frankly, ridiculous.

I find an argument saying the bible is 100% true to be absolutely ridiculous as well, considering we should be driven by logic and reason to find truth.

Scientists have discovered many way the bible is false. Fossils, other planets, the earth isn't flat, we're not the center of the universe, being able to clone, etc.

I'm agnostic, as science is. I do not claim that there is or is not a god.

Science isn't afraid to say "I don't know where we originated, but we can try and find out," while religion say "I know where we originated, and we're going to rely on fairy tales to explain it."

Here's an example for you:

You're sick:

You can go to a modern doctor, who will give you proper medication and treatment, or you can go to a medieval doctor, who will bleed you to cure you of your demons.

Which one would you choose?

  • 2 votes
#8.13 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:54 PM EDT
Mister Joshua

I find an argument saying the bible is 100% true to be absolutely ridiculous as well, considering we should be driven by logic and reason to find truth.

I never said the Bible was 100% true. When people say it is infallible it means that its moral teachings and theology is infallible. I don't care if there are descrepencies in the order in which the kings of Israel reigned in Chronicles and Kings. I don't care if the Bible doesn't explicitly state how old the Earth is. The only thing that matters is that Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross and was resurrected.

What is illogical is the position you take in completely and utterly rejecting the Bible in terms of historical value. Why? Because it has a religious meaning and that offends you? Ask any historian and they will tell you that a book as detailed and revered as the books of the Bible deserves to be critically analyzed for truth.

Perhaps you should read the accounts of noted archaelogists like J. B. Lightfoot, who spent extensive time digging in the Asia minor and in Palestine. His conclusion:

“…[N]o ancient work affords so many tests of veracity; for no other has such numerous points of contact in all directions with contemporary history, politics, and topography, whether Jewish, Greek, or Roman” (Essays of the Work Entitled Supernatural Religion, pp. 19-20).

The same goes for Sir William Ramsay, another English archaeologists that found that the archaeological record overwhelmingly validated Luke's credibility as a historian. So impressed was he that he became a Christian. He wrote:

“The present writer takes the view that Luke’s history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness. At this point we are describing what reasons and arguments changed the mind of one who began under the impression that the history was written long after the events and that it was untrustworthy as a whole”

So please, don't insult my intelligence by claiming that I am relying on mythical accounts, because despite the Big Lie that many antitheists, atheists, and agnostics use about the Bible being completely myth, the facts show otherwise. At the very least, the story of Jesus is plausible and worthy of consideration.

  • 1 vote
#8.14 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:46 PM EDT
John-1894652

What would Jesus say?

#8.15 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:51 PM EDT
Fearless Leader-2158343

nsider It: Where do you get your information from? No serious historian doubts that Jesus existed. And when I say historian, I mean actual accredited experts that research based on the historical method, not just religious apologists. Get a grip man. The Christ-Myth theory is as absurd as Holocaust denial.

When you say historian, you mean religious historian. Do you know who yeshua ha nozri, yeshua bin pantera and the essene teacher of righteousness are said to be?

Except for the obvious forgery of the testimonium flavium, there is no contemporary record of jesus - not among Romans nor historians of the time. Although john the baptist was known, jesus was not, nor was saul of tarsus.

And then there's the whole matter of 'Q'. You don't have any accounts of jesus you can trust.

And don't forget the bitter dispute between gnossos and pistus. the history is hard to find because the Pistics rewrote it.

And before Jesus the story of his live existed for hundreds of years among Romans, first as Mithras and later as Sol Invictis. Those legends had the same history of jesus - apostles, walking on water, feeding multitudes.

No, I don't think there's any compelling evidence for a historic jesus. there's no evidence where there should be, and too much attention to separation of apocrypha by isolation of gnossos or tolerance of women. It just seems like another myth to me. A liberal myth, obiously since the enlightenment was based on the alleged teachings of christ, but still a myth.

  • 2 votes
#8.16 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:09 PM EDT
Anathema6205

Joshua; your argument boils down to this:

You think atheists are denying your religion because of the moral standing; which isn't entirely true.

You're wrong in thinking that most religious people don't take the bible literally.

If they thought it wasn't to be taken literally, (aka earth 6,000 yrs old) I wouldn't have as much of a problem.

I don't reject the morality of Christianity; many religions have the same basis for morals.

I agree that Christ was a great philosopher and people should follow his example, I just don't believe there is an omnipotent being.

You don't have to believe in a god to have good morals.

  • 2 votes
#8.17 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:49 PM EDT
Concerned Citizen-1303521

You're wrong in thinking that most religious people don't take the bible literally.

If they thought it wasn't to be taken literally, (aka earth 6,000 yrs old) I wouldn't have as much of a problem.

Biblical literalism is a product of fundamentalism (a reaction against the Enlightenment). It's a fairly new type of belief that started only a few hundred years ago (in terms of sects).

Look back to some of the early Christian thinkers; St. Augustine wrote a book on why one shouldn't use the Bible to find scientific knowledge.

  • 5 votes
#8.18 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:38 PM EDT
CrescentSun

Look back to some of the early Christian thinkers; St. Augustine wrote a book on why one shouldn't use the Bible to find scientific knowledge.

I had to do a double-take on that statement. A bishop/saint that actually stated that one shouldn't take the bible literally is something I don't hear about that much. :P I don't know much about Augustine, but he sounds like he was a smart man.

  • 3 votes
#8.19 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:50 PM EDT
Anathema6205

Biblical literalism is a product of fundamentalism (a reaction against the Enlightenment). It's a fairly new type of belief that started only a few hundred years ago (in terms of sects).

Look back to some of the early Christian thinkers; St. Augustine wrote a book on why one shouldn't use the Bible to find scientific knowledge.

Very well said.

I agree that science and religion just don't mix.

On a metaphorical and philosophical level, it's great; but to take it literally is to be intentionally ignorant.

Here's an interesting link, concerning what the Vatican thinks.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

  • 2 votes
#8.20 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:30 PM EDT
Just Neli

Anathema6205

Are you listening to the creationists? Because they're the only ones claiming scientific impossibilities.

There is no official record of a man rising from the dead and into the sky.

It's an impossibility.

There is no proof that a man can walk on water.

The artifacts from that time, like the veil and such have been debunked and recreated.

Sure, you can go the "miracle" route, but considering we've seen no such thing...ever....you would have a hard time backing it with scientific evidence.

Possibly. But following the teachings credited to Him in the New Testament is a pretty good way to live a joyful and productive life, and leave the world a little better than you found it. That's enough for me. 8-)

  • 2 votes
#8.21 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:00 AM EDT
Anathema6205

The only thing that matters is that Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross and was resurrected.

So you like the STORY; the SYMBOLISM; the MEANING BEHIND that sacrifice.

Complete selflessness is a great thing to strive for and look up to...but that admiration still doesn't make Jesus any more plausible as a deity.

When people say it is infallible it means that its moral teachings and theology is infallible.

If all Christians thought that way, we wouldn't have issues with Christians protesting against teaching evolution or violating separation church and state and saying the world is only 6,000 years old and dinosaurs lived in the ark. -_-

It's good to see YOU see the bible as more of a philosophy, but the majority of Christians in this nation don't think that way. As someone stated above, they're fundamentalists.

What is illogical is the position you take in completely and utterly rejecting the Bible in terms of historical value.

I put no stock in a book that has been rewritten and retranslated a slew of times before it got to me that also tells me of scientific impossiblities.

If it's wrong in one respect, it makes you question the rest...in every aspect.

Why? Because it has a religious meaning and that offends you?

No- I take no offense at any religion. I take offense at hypocrisy and willful ignorance.

If the religious have taught me one thing, it's to never trust them, and to find my own answers.

There are many issues and holes in history and the bibles' timeline of it.

It's simply not accurate. Sure, a few things may have actually happened, but you have to realize that that tome was written by people who had limited knowledge of how the world worked.

Like the Nile turning into blood and poisoning everything; it's actually a fungus of sorts. It's spores spread through the water and it's color is red when active....guess what? It's also poisonous.

Ask any historian and they will tell you that a book as detailed and revered as the books of the Bible deserves to be critically analyzed for truth.

Ah! There we go: the clincher.

The quest for TRUTH.

If it's truth you seek, you need look no further than Jesus' teachings.

If it's FACTS you want, non-biased historians and the sciences have much more to teach you.

The same goes for Sir William Ramsay, another English archaeologists that found that the archaeological record overwhelmingly validated Luke's credibility as a historian. So impressed was he that he became a Christian.

That proves nothing. Creationists are completely convinced of their "evidence" that the ark existed and the young earth theory is correct...they claim to be scientists too, with degrees and everything...but it doesn't mean they're right.

Lie that many antitheists, atheists, and agnostics use about the Bible being completely myth

Never said it was ALL myth; there may be small bits of facts in it, scattered about in a muddled confusion of ancient superstitions and beliefs.

Besides, why are you complaining about the myths? You said that all that mattered to you was the core belief that Jesus sacrificed himself; the IDEA.

The philosophy.

I thought you said you didn't care if science has proven that the world is NOT a young earth.

I thought you didn't care if we know there was NO Adam and Eve.

I'm disappointed by your wishy-washy beliefs.

So which way do you go?

Do you believe in the core message, or are you a fundamentalist?

the facts show otherwise

lol, show me ONE fact in the bible and I can point out thirty more to counter it.

At the very least, the story of Jesus is plausible and worthy of consideration.

The STORY of Jesus, eh?

You mean it's fictional? :P

I don't find it to be plausible; just like I don't find Horus, Mithra or Krishna to be plausible, who all share striking similarities to your newer Christ.

When will you all understand that your religion is a hybrid of many?

If you validate your god as the true god, you validate almost all of the gods throughout history...because that's where the ancient Christians pulled it from.

If you bothered to research any other religion other than your own, you would have come across that helpful bit of evidence for yourself.

  • 1 vote
#8.22 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:22 AM EDT
Anathema6205

Possibly. But following the teachings credited to Him in the New Testament is a pretty good way to live a joyful and productive life, and leave the world a little better than you found it. That's enough for me. 8-)

I agree 100%, and I'm agnostic. :D

Now if only his own followers will do the same thing...

  • 1 vote
#8.23 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:22 AM EDT
magnoliaave

Off I go,so, consider it and Tony, have a great evening.

#9 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:43 PM EDT
PowerIsKnowledge

Great article Matt Rock.

  • 3 votes
#10 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:58 PM EDT
Matt Rock

Thank you! :)

  • 3 votes
#10.1 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:38 PM EDT
T.W.W.

Thank you for writing this sometimes I feel like jesus is my dirty little secret as a liberal but in my mind he aligns with my liberal values.

  • 1 vote
#11 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:07 PM EDT
Matt Rock

You're welcome! I feel the same way. I'm not a Christian, but I don't think any self-respecting liberal can really appreciate their ideology without understanding who Jesus was. Some don't believe that Jesus was real, which is understandable, but his influence on history, real or mythical, isn't deniable. :)

  • 4 votes
#11.1 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:40 PM EDT
Anathema6205

Exactly; I'm an agnostic, and I try and follow Christs' and Buddhas' ethics..

You don't have to be Christian or Buddhist to find their philosophies beautiful.

  • 1 vote
#11.2 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:22 PM EDT
Matt Rock

Exactly! If we look past the holy wars and stake-burnings, we find a brilliant philosopher with a message that can be quite inspirational. You don't have to become a Christian or believe he walked on water to respect his philosophy.

  • 1 vote
#11.3 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:22 PM EDT
VisionCoast

Jesus Christ, as I understand his teachings (as they're written by others), was apolitical. The core of his message was that we would be better served if we practiced our potential for virtuous humility, peace and forgiveness—to the extreme. In this way, he was an extremist, particularly from the point of view of the pharisees whose legalism and power were threatened by Christ's message.

I see a chasm in today's right-wing politics in that the same people who are pro-life are pro-death penalty. They oppose abortion and then complain bitterly about welfare mothers. They've absorbed the religious right into their politics, which adds to the above the oxymoronic marriage of Christian love with warmongering, Christian forgiveness with conquest of their political opponents, and Christian modesty with profiteering.

These thoughts are not intended as a defense of left-wing politics, which has a raft of its own problems and hypocrisies.

  • 5 votes
#12 - Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:45 PM EDT
AmericanTransvestite

I agree with you and throw my support as a theology major in university.

I think it's very crass to try to fit Jesus into either the "liberal" or "conservative" label, serving oneself more than anything. For example, rendering unto Caesar which is Caesar's is a complex little saying because on one hand it's saying "give those little coins back to Caesar," but on the other it's opting out of the system altogether. The coins which would be used to pay taxes would have Roman propaganda on them and would proclaim Augustus as the "son of god," the fact that Jesus did not have Roman coinage on him showed that he had left this political system altogether - this currency was all over the place in the cities.

"Jesus never said anything about gay marriage, and as we pointed out earlier, he didn't expect people to live by the Old Testament," is a gross simplification and completely ignores that Jesus said that he came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it! The Law is the Old Testament, Torah means instruction or law, and we typically render it as law. Jesus did not come to destroy what God had laid down with Moses and the prophets, but to make to complete it. How does this apply to gay marriage? Frankly, it's a hard thing to discuss and this topic makes it sound super easy at the cost of being theologically unsound. It could easily be argued that by not discussing the topic of homosexuality, Jesus is telling us that the laws of Leviticus are correct. This is a topic I struggle with as I know and care for several gay people. I struggle with it through prayer and going to Scripture and by looking into myself to see if God's will makes itself clear to me - I think it is blasphemy to simply say "Jesus doesn't expect us to listen to the Old Testament!" Go and read Amos and Micah and Hosea to see why that statement is dumb! When one say we're not to listen to the Old Testament, it means we're to ignore the prophets whom God spoke through.

Frankly, I would say that Jesus was apolitical - the kingdom of Heaven does not relate to the politics of today. All the kingdoms of the world will pay tribute when God's reign is complete (according to Revelations). This sort of writing is just as dangerous as the right-wing's view on Jesus. I firmly believe that trying to define Jesus with our definitions of liberal and conservative are dangerous. At the very least, it's quite arrogant as it amounts to "God is on our side, not yours; he favours us, not you!"

  • 2 votes
#12.1 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:22 AM EDT
VisionCoast

From a theological standpoint, I think Jesus' most compelling philosophical command was to love your neighbor as yourself in response to the pharisees' question about which was the greatest commandment:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If we think about this in any depth, it means simply that we would always do for others that which we would do for ourselves. I think we can all understand what that means.

In my informal bible studies, I've come to understand Christ's teachings as two simple tenets:

1. Don't invest your fortunes in the self-serving materialism this world advocates, because ultimately we are not of this world. Rather, provide for yourself and for others only as much as you need, always regarding others as important as yourself.

2. Do what you know is right, always and without hesitation and without concern for negative ramifications to your own safety and well-being.

I understand Matt's premise on Christ being more of a liberal than a conservative in his philosophies, because liberals tend to be more interested in the well-being of others than the conservative notion of every man for himself. At least, that's how I've come to understand modern-day conservative thinking. Anatoly-Rex may well correct me on this, which is fine and welcome.

Christ, in his time, was certainly a rebel and a radical. All that he taught then and would teach now is antithetical to modern man's ideas of survival and progressive living (at least the non-indigenous man). Liberals, for all their schools of thought, wouldn't be as selfless as Christ advocated.

  • 4 votes
#12.2 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:55 PM EDT
Anathema6205

Frankly, I would say that Jesus was apolitical - the kingdom of Heaven does not relate to the politics of today.

Here's what everyones' getting confused:

There is a difference between political and having a belief or an opinion of the world and people around you.

I personally don't think Jesus would be a registered voter, but he WOULD stand up for equality for gays, he WOULD stand up for the lower class (aka socialistic standards), and he would stand up against the death penalty, against gun rights, against denial of global warming, against a theocracy, and against the TEA nonsense...ALL things the liberals stand for.

His teachings are all in the bible about all these things.

On gays:

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

-Matthew 7:3-5

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
-Matthew 6:14-15

The lower class and socialistic standards:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'"

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
-Matthew 6:19-21

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?"
-Matthew 6:25

Death penalty:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well."

-Matthew 5:38-40

Gun rights:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."
-Matthew 5:43-45

Denial of global warming:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
-Matthew 7:13-14

Theocracy:

"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Taxed Enough Already:

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”
-Matthew 6:5-6

...I think it's pretty clear what Jesus would preach in this day and age.

  • 2 votes
#12.3 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:55 AM EDT
RT8

Gun rights:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."
-Matthew 5:43-45

You're assuming all people who own guns or support the 2nd amendment only have violent/criminal intentions in mind. Even if self-defense is the motive, I don't think Jesus would be against us protecting ourselves and our families from those with evil intentions. "Turn the other cheek" or "love your enemies" isn't the same "as let your wife/daughter get raped" or "take the thug's bullet without a fight"

  • 2 votes
#12.4 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:56 PM EDT
Anathema6205

"Turn the other cheek" or "love your enemies" isn't the same "as let your wife/daughter get raped" or "take the thug's bullet without a fight"

Yes, it does mean that.

You're assuming all people who own guns or support the 2nd amendment only have violent/criminal intentions in mind.

The entire purpose for a gun is to commit some form of violence.

Either to kill or maim.

There is no other reason to get one; so by supporting gun rights, you support violence.

When someone hurts you, you turn the other cheek.

You DO NOT strike back.

When someone harms you or your family, you pray for them, don't hurt them.

That's what he said.

What part of love your enemies don't you get??

You can't follow what is convenient for you-if you are a true christ follower, you follow ALL his teachings, even if they're hard.

It's part of sacrifice and not compromising your morals.

  • 1 vote
#12.5 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:08 PM EDT
RT8

The entire purpose for a gun is to commit some form of violence.

Either to kill or maim.

There is no other reason to get one; so by supporting gun rights, you support violence.

The only thing my guns have ever maimed are paper targets.

When someone harms you or your family, you pray for them, don't hurt them.

I will not stand idly by and pray that they "only" hurt us instead of killing us or something like that. If they get away from the scene of the crime, I will pray that they see the error of their ways and that they do not victimize someone else, but as long as they pose a real threat, I will do what it takes.

  • 1 vote
#12.6 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:11 PM EDT
TiG.

Anathema

You can't follow what is convenient for you-if you are a true christ follower, you follow ALL his teachings, even if they're hard.

Who says? Why would anyone insist that a religious person give up critical thinking and blindly obey a doctrine? Most religious people I know personally are balanced. They use their religion as a guideline, not an absolute recipe for conducting life.

Of course religious fanatics do indeed exist. But why would an agnostic choose to paint all religious people as fanatics?

#12.7 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:24 PM EDT
Anathema6205

Why would anyone insist that a religious person give up critical thinking and blindly obey a doctrine?

Really? Respecting life and being non-violent is giving up critical thinking??

Violence only begets more violence.

Though I'm an agnostic, I follow the non-violent creed to the extreme.

I have NEVER raised my hand to anyone.

I've seen the damage violence can do first-hand.

My parents were abusive.

My friend killed himself because his parents were abusive as well.

I was once beaten by a group of thugs. I didn't defend myself.

I was hospitalized, but they were brought to justice through law.

I strongly oppose ANY kind of violence. I don't care if it kills me; I won't participate in the violence.

An injustice may happen and I'm sure will happen later; but that is the price I gladly pay for setting an example.

They use their religion as a guideline, not an absolute recipe for conducting life.

If there's one part of the bible I would suggest following exactly, it's Christ's lessons that I listed above.

Non-violence is the hardest lesson to follow; as most people would rather resort to violence than sort things out like civilized people.

In my book, if you have to resort to violence, you've already lost.

If someone is stealing your stuff, don't be an idiot and go in after them to try and stop them; it's only material objects...it's not worth your life. Call the cops and make sure you can identify their car or whatever.

Get a watchdog to prevent theft. They may not know you have a gun until it's in their face; they know you have a rottweiler from just looking in your yard. It's a preventative action.

If someone mugs you, let them take your material goods. To prevent from being mugged, travel with more than just one person or by yourself.

It's all in the preventative tactics. :D

You don't have to rush blindly into violence and then say you oppose it; just try and be a little smart.

But why would an agnostic choose to paint all religious people as fanatics?

I didn't do that.

The only thing my guns have ever maimed are paper targets.

Fortunately, you've never had to use it- but what was the purpose of getting it?

Self-defense?

If it's for sport, ( targets and such) I could understand your stance...unless you're planning on using those target practice lessons and using them in case you get in a nasty situation.

I will not stand idly by and pray that they "only" hurt us instead of killing us or something like that. If they get away from the scene of the crime, I will pray that they see the error of their ways and that they do not victimize someone else, but as long as they pose a real threat, I will do what it takes.

I understand what you're saying, and it's a valid point; but it goes against Christ's teachings.

If you accept that and choose to do it anyway, you'll have to answer to your god if you are christian. I'm not forcing you to do anything or saying that I want the second amendment abolished, I personally just don't agree with violence, and neither did Jesus.

He got himself crucified because of his teachings, and he didn't resist that death either, correct?

He didn't resist the evil people.

  • 1 vote
#12.8 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:54 PM EDT
Anathema6205

Why would anyone insist that a religious person give up critical thinking and blindly obey a doctrine?

Ugh. Stupid newvine, the timer ran out on the edit.

I wanted to go further on this one and clarify.

I'm NOT saying you should follow everything blindly just because it's in the bible.

I've read all of the bible, and there's much of it I disagree with; but all of Christs' teachings I feel would make a much better world.

He protests greed, violence and prejudice; all things I feel strongly about as well.

I HAVE thought critically about the lessons Christ taught, and I feel he was a wise philosopher, if he ever existed.

I also follow much of Buddhas' philosophies as well.

It's certainly not easy, and I'm sure some people think it's stupid to not fight back, but I just don't want to contribute to the oceans of blood humanity has spilled since we were here.

I would rather die.

  • 1 vote
#12.9 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:08 PM EDT
RT8

If it's for sport, ( targets and such) I could understand your stance...unless you're planning on using those target practice lessons and using them in case you get in a nasty situation.

As I practice now, yes, it is just for sport, but if the need to apply what I've practiced arises...

I understand your feelings on the subject and respect your choice. While we obviously don't agree, I appreciate your general civility thus far. It can be hard to find on a seed such as this.

Being imperfect, humans cannot live their lives exactly as Christ did, and I think that these excerpts from the Catechism of the Catholic church helps give some contemporary guidlines.

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful.... Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.[65]

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor.... The one is intended, the other is not."[65]

#12.10 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:44 PM EDT
RT8

This site also gives a couple of perspectives (total non-violence vs. defense of innocent life is justified) if you're interested.

http://www.salemmbc.com/index.php?p=1_43_Is-self-defense-an-option-for-God-s-people-

#12.11 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:02 PM EDT
Anathema6205

Self-defense is a valid point, and I respect peoples' rights to defend their lives.

The whole reason I'm doing this, however, is to set an example not just to those who are good, but to those that are immoral.

If enough people follow that example, maybe we will eventually progress to the point where we won't need to defend ourselves with physical conflict.

There are better ways to change someones' mind on an issue.

Force is never the way.

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

This is much like our laws in the US. If you kill someone in self-defense you won't be punished as harshly. I agree with others' rights to do so, along with our police force using lethal force...I just won't do it myself.

Violence unchecked is what gets us into trouble.

Just take a look at the current tea party; they support gun rights, but they are threatening assassination of the president and violence by mob.

THIS is what I disagree with. They abuse their right to carry a firearm.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YdAacBURVXE/S6zvzyg7SZI/AAAAAAAAFaY/0a3Cj88mZYw/s1600/tea-party-sign-armed.jpg

http://thomaspainescorner.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/slide_5496_74976_large1.jpg

Thank you for staying civil as well; though we may not always agree, we can always debate and keep the respect. :D

We may both come to an agreement and a middle ground one some of these instances.

Friend request sent.

#12.12 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:12 PM EDT
TiG.

Anathema

(per #12.8)

My post responded to this single quote:

You can't follow what is convenient for you-if you are a true christ follower, you follow ALL his teachings, even if they're hard.

These words are insisting that a Christian must follow ALL of the teachings of Christ.

Thus I asked you the following:

"Why would anyone insist that a religious person give up critical thinking and blindly obey a doctrine?"

Your response started with:

Really? Respecting life and being non-violent is giving up critical thinking??

My comment had absolutely nothing to do with the content or quality of Christian beliefs. It is all about the mandate in your words that Christians must follow ALL of the teachings of Christ.

If someone blindly follows Christ (follows ALL) he/she has given up critical thinking. By definition.

Your response states that is not what you meant.

I'm NOT saying you should follow everything blindly just because it's in the bible.

I believe you. This post is simply a precise clarification of why I interpreted your words as I did.

______________

Later you responded to another of my questions:

"But why would an agnostic choose to paint all religious people as fanatics?"

By stating:

I didn't do that.

But in fact you did ... at least for all Christians. If you insist that a Christian must follow ALL Christ's teaching (back to the original post now, prior to your explanation) then indeed that makes fanaticism a prerequisite for Christianity.

Main Entry: fa·nat·ic

: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion <they're fanatic about politics>

But, again, you have since cleared this up.

  • 1 vote
#12.13 - Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:51 AM EDT
Anathema6205

Glad that was cleared up, my friend. :D

  • 1 vote
#12.14 - Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:58 PM EDT
ThreeCents

Jesus=mom, God=dad. I am not religious but that is the way I see Christians, which I nominally am, looking at things. Some might call it good cop /bad cop. Conservative Chistians can call upon Jesus to forgive sins when it suits then and call upon God to profess damnation when it doesn't and in the end not feel conflicted at all. After centuries of tweaking Christian faith many have found a way to forgiving or forgiving, tolerant or intolerant about any social issue and not feel inconsistent at all.

  • 2 votes
#13 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:35 AM EDT
juliawells20Deleted
Sherry working hard

*sigh* I do not put any labels on Jesus, he is for all of us.

  • 4 votes
#15 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:06 AM EDT
Demosthene

It makes me smile to see the effort that Rex made to conflate social philosophy and political philosophy. The two are intertwined, but certainly not the same. Matt presented an exploration of Jesus' social philosophy and Rex blew a fuse. Matt's treatment was a succinct invitation to view Christ as an exponent of progressive thought and action. Rex's response dissolved into an attempt to disprove the disprovable through a ham-fisted use of logic. Epic fail.

  • 2 votes
#16 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:42 AM EDT
Matt Rock

Cheers for that Demo, I'm glad other people understood what I was going for and for a while there I was worried that I didn't get my point across the way I meant to! :)

#16.1 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:02 AM EDT
Sherry working hard

We should not label Jesus or try to put him in a box with what WE think he was/is. Our standards, labels and boundries are not his.

#16.2 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:34 PM EDT
TedStricker

Pound-for-pound, Jesus Christ is the most famous and celebrated liberal activist of all time.

Then why is he the founding father of the Religious Right ? Go Figure.

  • 4 votes
#17 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:05 AM EDT
Matt Rock

Then why is he the founding father of the Religious Right ?

I believe the names you're looking for are Ronald Reagan, Jerry Falwell, and Anita Bryant.

#17.1 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:05 AM EDT
TedStricker

I see, there was no Religious Right before 1980.

So who were those abolitionists who founded the Republican Party and , in fact, lead the movement to end slavery in the 1830's ?

The modern American abolition movement emerged in the early 1830s as a by-product of religious revivalism (think Religious Right here Matt) popularly known as the Second Great Awakening. Revivalistic tenets led abolitionists to see slavery as the product of personal sin and to demand emancipation as the price of repentance.

http://americanabolitionist.liberalarts.iupui.edu/brief.htm

These are the people who establish the Republican Party in a few more years.

Hell, we can go back another 1,830 years of Religious Right history if you want.

You should do more research before you comment, Matt.

  • 4 votes
#17.2 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:29 PM EDT
Matt Rock

Slight problem, Ted: Republicans weren't conservative back then. Actually, abolitionists were quite liberal. Conservatives formed the Whig Party, based heavily on the tenants of Jeffersonian Democracy, and the Whigs opposed the emancipation of slaves (they were, after all, conservatives, who hoped to conservethe status quo). Abraham Lincoln was a member of the Republican Party, which remained liberal until and through the Taft administration, after which Republicans shifted toward conservatism, and Democrats, under Woodrow Wilson, shifted toward liberalism.

Conservatism doesn't hold a trademark on religion. Liberalism and religion have a long history together, inspiring movements within both. My dad was a Roman Catholic, but a devout Democrat. While my mom was (and still is) the firebrand liberal in our family, my dad was still notably liberal, and some of my beliefs regarding Jesus as a liberal historical figure stem from that.

  • 2 votes
#17.3 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:34 PM EDT
Anathema6205

Conservative- comfortable in old ways

Liberal- revolutionary and progressive

  • 1 vote
#17.4 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:05 AM EDT
TedStricker

Liberal- revolutionary and progressive

Ah, like the Tea Party !

  • 2 votes
#17.5 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:13 AM EDT
Anathema6205

Ah, like the Tea Party !

If you mean the first one:

you know, the "no taxation without representation" group?

  • 1 vote
#17.6 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:04 PM EDT
Matt Rock

They know the "no taxation" part, but that whole "without representation" bit tends to throw them for a loop, lol. I've had people say -- and I'm not kidding, it was done in an article I wrote a few months ago -- that they don't have representation "because they didn't vote for Obama." When I asked if they'd support a two-President Consul system like that of the old Roman Republican, I didn't even get cricket noises in response.

Ah, like the Tea Party !

The tea party isn't revolutionary, nor is it progressive. They're incendiary, but not really revolutionary; they don't have the numbers to really take claim to that title yet. And they certainly aren't progressive, since most of their ideology revolves around contemporary conservative values. They spend much of their time protesting the progressive agenda.

  • 1 vote
#17.7 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:44 PM EDT
TedStricker

The tea party isn't revolutionary, nor is it progressive. They're incendiary, but not really revolutionary; they don't have the numbers to really take claim to that title yet.

Yet.

11/02/2010 ...... 73 days to go......tick, tick, tick,......

  • 1 vote
#17.8 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:42 PM EDT
Matt Rock

I could show you polling data that might upset you Ted, but I'm not in the business of intentionally upsetting people ;)

#17.9 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:03 PM EDT
Anathema6205

The tea party isn't revolutionary, nor is it progressive. They're incendiary, but not really revolutionary; they don't have the numbers to really take claim to that title yet.

You just missed the important part: they aren't revolutionary or progressive.

So what is it that you like about them?

They hate taxes, but they still want the services that our taxes provide.

They're the ones that want handouts.

Hypocrites to no end, I tell you.

  • 1 vote
#17.10 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:58 PM EDT
TedStricker

I could show you polling data that might upset you Ted

Dittos Matt.

A little Rush lingo for you.

Hypocrites to no end, I tell you.

Very dramatic ending Anathema. Nice touch .

  • 1 vote
#17.11 - Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:49 AM EDT
Anathema6205

Very dramatic ending Anathema. Nice touch .

Why thank you.

I think it captured the depth of the argument well too. :D

  • 1 vote
#17.12 - Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:51 PM EDT
tmac-425222

History's Greatest Liberals: Jesus Christ

Though he wasn't into business, he has become a great source of profit. Maybe that answers your question TedStricker.

  • 2 votes
#18 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:59 AM EDT
SCTexan

Great spin......

The best thing, and worst thing, about the bible, Jesus related parts anyway, is that it is told in parables, in language for the times. It uses stories that were meant for the common uneducated people of the day to be able to understand. Unfortunately most of these teachings can be twisted or edited to support any side of an argument. I mean there are peace movements using the bible and many wars using the bible. Is it possible both could be right? Depends on “your” interpretation

For example: the liberal’s often quote "Render unto Caesar...” The complete story is that Jesus was being setup by some who wanted to trick him into saying something to self incriminate himself so they could have the Romans could arrest him for sedition. They had hoped that he would say that they shouldn't pay taxes to Rome (which would lead me to believe he was known to be against it, so they expected him to say so in this public forum). But what did he say? He asked whose picture was on the coins, and then if the coins belonged to Caesar, then give them to him. He did not endorse or refute taxes, just if you have something that belongs to someone else (or the government), then give it to them. I do not consider my income to belong to the government, it belongs to me. If George Washington shows up and wants my dollar bills, then I'll have to think about it.

There is also an often overlooked passage where Jesus point blanks says, paraphrased, 'give to the poor if you want to.... (I'll let you who care look it up.) I agree with what someone else posted earlier in this seed; Jesus never told you anyone that they HAD TO do anything, he never said that not doing it would condemn you to hell. If you are a believer, you want to do those things and support the causes you believe in and that accomplish those goals. As I’ve said in a few other posts like this one; Jesus never said, give me your money because I best know how to spend it.

I think Jesus had views that can be supported by both sides of the current political climate. No one side has all the answers and those that think they do, are the ones to be wary of.

  • 5 votes
#19 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
magnoliaave

SCTexan - great post, thank you.

  • 2 votes
#19.1 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:31 AM EDT
Sherry working hard

Agreed we are all a piece of the puzzle!

#19.2 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:38 PM EDT
PowerIsKnowledge

Though he wasn't into business, he has become a great source of profit. Maybe that answers your question TedStricker.

I like it! Jesus for profit.

  • 1 vote
#20 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:30 AM EDT
Mister Joshua

Well Jesus had an accountant to handle the money bag: his name was Judas Iscariot.

  • 2 votes
#20.1 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:24 PM EDT
KitKat51

Wonderful seed Matt! I need to {{{{{HUG}}}}}} your neck again! :) As I've said before, the "church" has become something that Christ Himself will not recognize. And, let's not forget that the man, Jesus, was an arab jew. A fact that the so-called christian right likes to overlook. The person of Jesus is a little too inconvenient.

  • 2 votes
#21 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:32 AM EDT
brianfromPA

The problem with all of this is one simple item that has been omitted here. The Bible for which we base all of this information on was sanctioned and written almost 300 years after the man Jesus died. Sanctioned by a man who worshipped the Roman god Mars and was attempting to resurrect a dying empire. It was put together with a collection of cherry-picked books that quite honestly NOBODY knows if they are the authentic true writings of the men and women they claim to be written by.

The only semi-proof of Jesus' words we may have is a scroll that was found and scooped up and hidden by the Catholic Church (if you believe such fantasies).

I love this article, and it makes very good points, but the FACT is... Nobody living today has the vaguest clue except possibly a few individuals at the Vatican, and I can guarantee they will never breathe a word of it.

  • 4 votes
#22 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:54 AM EDT
PowerIsKnowledge

love this article, and it makes very good points, but the FACT is... Nobody living today has the vaguest clue except possibly a few individuals at the Vatican, and I can guarantee they will never breathe a word of it.

So true and I'd like to add unless one reads Hebrew and Greek one doesn't know what the bible says and, unless and until believers of these bible scriptures can have access to the original script, they'll never know what it says--they can only take the word of those who claim to know what it says.

  • 4 votes
#22.1 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:21 AM EDT
Edward-453134

History's Greatest Liberals: Jesus Christ

One word came to mind, when I read that

To be sure of myself, the word and the meaning

blas·phe·my
/'blæsf?mi/ Show Spelled[blas-fuh-mee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -mies.
1.
impious utterance or action concerning god or sacred things.
2.
Judaism .
a.
an act of cursing or reviling God.
b.
pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original,
now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.
3.
Theology . the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.
4.
irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.:
He uttered blasphemies against life itself.

#23 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:07 AM EDT
Matt Rock

This was intended to be a philosophical discussion, not a theological one. And since you chose to read this article of your own accord, you've done more to offend yourself than I have to offend you.

  • 2 votes
#23.1 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:37 PM EDT
Edward-453134

Why should I be offended? That was a definition, the word theology was part of the definition. Man trying to put themselves on the same level as Jesus Christ, then the word used would be appropriate.

  • 1 vote
#23.2 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:20 PM EDT
Anathema6205

Man trying to put themselves on the same level as Jesus Christ, then the word used would be appropriate.

Isn't that what Christians want to do when they mimic Christs' behavior and teachings?

Aren't you trying to be like him???

And it ain't blasphemy if there is no god to be insulted.

And if there WERE a god that would be so angry with one of his children that he would send them to an eternity of FIRE and PAIN, then he is therefore tainted with human emotion and imperfect....therefore, he is not god.

  • 1 vote
#23.3 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:09 AM EDT
Matt Rock

And if there WERE a god that would be so angry with one of his children that he would send them to an eternity of FIRE and PAIN, then he is therefore tainted with human emotion and imperfect....therefore, he is not god.

That, my friend, has just influenced an article :)

  • 2 votes
#23.4 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:46 PM EDT
Anathema6205

:D Glad to oblige.

Send me the link when you're done!

I want in on that one!

  • 1 vote
#23.5 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:59 PM EDT
Matt Rock

I called it "Why Are the Gods So Totalitarian?" I did try to take a more comical approach to it though, I'm getting sick of everyone calling me a heathen lol :P

  • 1 vote
#23.6 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:17 PM EDT
Cygnus_X-1

Matt, I agree with your general analysis, but any time you start talking Christ to Christians, you'll need to back it up with verse.

  • 2 votes
#24 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:21 AM EDT
Anathema6205

Here ya go!

#12.3

  • 1 vote
#24.1 - Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:09 AM EDT
steven-791492

The headline says it all ... great article.

  • 3 votes
#25 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:22 AM EDT
billy-witchdoctor-com

In this installment of Histories Greatest liberals.....

1).Christ believed that a poor man had a better chance of getting into heaven than a rich man, and encouraged his followers to bestow upon themselves a vow of poverty. You might say that Jesus Christ wanted to "spread the wealth around."

let's hear what Jesus said....21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:16-30

Meaning that man is incapapble of being perfect,only God is, he is unwilling to let go of his treasures, the same can be said of the liberal...will he let go of his/her possoesions, like socilaism, socialized medicine(obamacare), and the sooner liberals beigin to accept that it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than for a liberal to give up his socialized possesion's and follow Jesus.

2.)Jesus flipped the mean switch, activated his Kung-Fu grip, and set out on a destructive rampage, leveling a market. This action wasn't exactly an endorsement of free enterprise, and one might argue that Jesus would favor government

No, he actually favored people not being ripped off by the Governmental body of the church which allowed people to get robbed(compare to forcing people against their will to pay for Obamacare s...seems like a good idea, but will insurance companies then charge even more, they did when the Govt forced us to but auto insurance.

Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. "It is written, My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers"

Turns out that they sold birds to be released at more than double the price that they would charge any other day...becuase of the religious significance, and the governing body(Pharisees) would allow these vendors to get away with what Jesus term as robbery...The government which should have looked out for the people...looked the other way and supported the businesses practice.

For the categories listed:

Gay marraige, abortion, evolution...he would have referred to the laws of the old testament...Jesus spoke to the Pharisee he reffered to the law of Moses and showed how he diid not break the law of Moses.

Illegal Immigration: when the disciples reconvened to spread the word there was an argument as to whether or not to share the Gospel with Gentiles...John 3:16 For gos so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that who ever believesa in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ...there is only one way to have eternal life, christians will believe there is a right way, through Jesus christ, and a right way to immigration

Taxation...Jesus believed in giving Caesar what is Caesars, Nothing more... Jesus loved the most hated...the tax collector...He called them to repentance and grace. Christ had mercy upon the tax collector and sinner and He always received them because that was why He came. Luke 19:10 says, "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

  • 1 vote
#26 - Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:32 AM EDT
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