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Member Since: 2/2006
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PrintThe real thing doesn''t photograph well. You will have to go with my symbolic representation. Pic by me.
As individuals, there are many things which can lead us there. It could be the death of a loved one, it could be witnessing a natural disaster, it could be finding ourselves unexpectedly unemployed and with no friends to turn to. For some people, it is simply a culmination of small things, over the years, and it is impossible to pinpoint the one that tipped us over. However we get there, most people, sooner or later, find themselves staring into the abyss. It is a black, bottomless space, without any assurance that there is anything more real than this. You realize that everything you ever had to believe in, everything you counted on as a foundation, was an illusion. You realize that the symbols and trappings of your life are just that: symbols and trappings, nothing more. There is no guarantee that there is a reason, a pattern, a loving creator who will some day tell you why all this was necessary. There are no certainties that "it will all work out OK", no promises that your loved ones will always be there, not even the comfort of thinking that you, at least, will always try to do the right thing. You are weak, the world is quite possibly a random collection of events, and you know with complete certainty that you are truly and finally alone.
How we deal with this experience has a great deal to do with the people we become. Most will run frantically from the spot, closing their eyes tightly and grabbing on to the first seemingly solid ground they can find. They blot out the memory of the abyss, and replace it's image with something "evil" from which they turned. Many religious conversions, marriages, and careers are begun this way. Some will refuse to run from the abyss, but are unable to accept it. They remain poised at the brink, unable to turn their eyes, unable to move on knowing what they know. They try to numb the bleak despair they feel, finding some solace in drugs, alcohol, endless hours of television, perhaps meaningless sexual affairs...but ultimately they pay the price with their self-revulsion. Some will stare long and hard into the abyss, and then carry it with them everywhere they go, spreading their perception of cruel meaninglessness out into the world, trying to bring as many into that void with them as they can, justifying their callous action by blaming the abyss, rather then their own cowardice. Many serial killers, corporate monsters, and petty thugs stand in this place. And some will walk carefully and deliberately from that place, trying their best to accept the lessons of the abyss while also accepting that they choose to continue in this world, and that they are therefore responsible for determining a means to do so. These people are unique and diverse in their outcomes, the manifestation of this choice can wear many shapes. They are doctors and parents, artists and scientists, teachers and inventors. You will only know them if, in an unguarded moment, you catch a particular look in their eye. If you ask them what they were thinking about, they will most likely be disinclined to explain.
Unfortunately, as a culture we refuse to discuss the abyss, refuse to even admit it's existence. We each of us walk into that place completely unprepared for what lies in wait for us there. And as a culture, we suffer for that denial.
As a culture, we are collectively running as hard and as fast as we can from the abyss. Our rampant consumerism, our blind faith in God, in country, in anything but ourselves is a demonstration of our fear. With a frightening percentage of our population already behind bars, we continue to create more laws to hold the darkness at bay. We lap up horror stories, while secretly projecting ourselves into the role of killed or killer. We work ourselves, literally, to death to escape the possibility of one more brush with the unbearable darkness. We use bullying and bluster to avoid looking at how all our attempts, all our denial, are simply not working, not saving us from ourselves.
The abyss is coming for all of us, eventually. There is no way to escape it. The only choice we have is how we choose to proceed.
As individuals, we would be better served by admitting that the abyss is there, by openly facing it's emptiness and consciously recognizing that our lives, our futures, rest only in our own hands. By admitting to others that we have seen it, and by sharing our thoughts and experiences from that point with the understanding that we each find our own path out. We can find comfort and strength by recognizing that though we walk alone, we are not alone in the landscape. We can prepare our children by letting them see that there is pain and uncertainty in the world, and by demonstrating for them that hope comes not from a blind faith in some future salvation, but in the good and caring efforts of ourselves and others, right here, right now.
As a culture, it is time we stopped running, stopped trying to cover up the seemingly insurmountable problems with glitter and noise. We must look carefully and honestly at the present, and be willing to admit our role in its creation. There is no blame to be assigned; we all contributed, as did all our parents, and all of theirs. We all play a part in what the future will be, for a culture is merely a synthesis of the beliefs and practices of the individuals. We must stop waiting for some great leader to come and save us, because we each of us, in our actions, are leading the way into the future we will all share. Each tiny choice makes a difference.
And this is how the revolution will happen, when it happens, if it happens. Not with sweeping demonstrations and massive protests (though there is nothing wrong with those things), not with violence and forced change. But in almost imperceivable changes within each of us, nearly unnoticeable alterations in our choices, as we each accept full responsibility for our lives and our future. Grain by tiny grain, the sands will shift, and one day we will look down and realize we are standing some place entirely new. The abyss will still be there. But we will no longer be afraid.
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Wow! What a great read!
With age I am learning to deal with the abyss in a more constructive manner or at least I hope I am.
I hope more people come to realize this and act accordingly.
Thank you. I really hope so, too.
I want to file a complaint - your essays are so thoughtful that I'm always at a loss for anything intelligent to add but then if I say nothing, since i'm left speechless (and that's a compliment) it implies I've not read you when I have.
So write some dreck or something, ok?:)
Um, didn't you catch my WWN series? I mean, dreck is what we are all about....
I haven't read a more thought-provoking piece, on this subject, in quite a while. You have a rare gift Celestina.
I often feel as though I'm sitting on the edge of that abyss with my legs hanging over, wondering when the edge will give way beneath me, and curiously, I don't care.
*chuckle* I know exactly what you mean.
Come to the edge he said. We are afraid, they replied. Come to the edge, he said. They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
Breathe.
Beautiful.
moon..above... earth..below... nothingness..surrounds... loves..around.....
The 'Abyss' thing I'll get round to after I've finished this 'Ritual quantifies chaos' thing.
great writing. thanks.
Vivid picture. Recovering alcoholics and addicts call it "the bottom". They are lucky in that way. They have found the bottom and survived. Most people live in the "glitter and noise" and never really contemplate "reality". Life becomes an exercise in hiding from reality. This exercise in hiding is fully exploited. Food and entertainment are big industries that are fueled by avoidence of now.
I think your picture of the abyss is vivid and accurate, but I have trouble making the bridge. I've been depressed and hopeless. There was nothing in me that could take me that would allow me to go on "consciously recognizing that our lives, our futures, rest only in our own hands." That realization is actually what took me to the edge of the abyss.
Yes, and no. It enables you to tap sources of strength you never knew you had. I call it the gift of desperation. But, once you know it's there, life becomes at once a struggle and a dance. A struggle to make meaning where there may not be any, and a dance to stay close enough to the edge to be grateful, but far enough away to stay sane.
For me, it's usually best to put on Radio Disney and dance with my kids. Escapism? Maybe. But I personally find meaning in the joy of my children.
This is amazing, as always, Celestina.
Its what gets me through each and every day of my life!
Well though out article, Celestina. I am sitting here right now at work with a horrible friggin migaraine and aura and I found the abyss to be quite fitting right now!
Well, it can be a terrifying experience to realize how powerful, how responsible we are, strange as it seems. That there is no cosmic clean-up crew for when we make a mess, and that there really is no limit to how badly we can screw up. On the other hand, for me, the realization that whatever form my life takes is ultimately up to me is worth the price.
One thing I know, from being there and from talking to others, is that no one can tell anyone else how to walk away from the abyss with a straight back. We each find our own path, create our own meaning to make it worth continuing. But the very fact that you can see it, that you can talk about it, means you haven't given up. *smile* I have no doubt that you will find your way.
Brenda--
This is beautifully put. It's hard to stay "sane" once you know what's down there...but it sure does keep life interesting!
Absolutely!
I'm having some philosophical trouble with the discussion. Mainly the assertion that the Abyss is somehow a "truer" reality, or "at the core" of reality. Our experiences with the Abyss are physical and emotional. We hit bottom, get exhausted, depressed, and come away with the conclusion that we are alone. Nobody can go with us where we are going.
Another day, we feel good. We are happy. Our friends are nice to us. We come away with the conclusion that we are in community. People do care about us and we are on a journey together...
Both of these states are a function of our emotional state which is manipulated by our physical state. How then is one more real than the other? We need a definition of reality that is seperate from our mere emotional makeup.
Alright, I'll weigh in with a serious response to this piece and I'll tie it in with my response to Matthew.
The Abyss, by definition, isn't just an emotional state on par with happiness or mild irritation. It's not an external geographic place, exactly, but that's sort of a better way to look at it - it's not just the feeling that there's nothing, no core of meaning, no order, no structure, nothing in the Center of Things. It's rather the understanding of that fact, and furthermore a contemplation of the implications.
To look into the Abyss is to realize that at the center of every emotion - every joy, every sorrow - there is Nothing. That at the center of every motivation there is Nothing. That every achievement, every defeat, and every walk through the woods on a sunny day means nothing beyond that value which you give it.
To realize that every time you assign a value to something, you're acting on whim and fancy because those values are then only predicated on YOU, and that in the end, when you look into your very core, you find nothing but that same Abyss.
It's not an emotional state, it's a sharp insight. You might dwell on it and be depressed about it when in a bad mood, and be resigned to it and ok with it when in a good mood, but the fundamental reality of it won't change. That's the nature of the abyss.
Let me try a different metaphor, and pardon if I once more refer to video games. This was a formative moment in my late childhood. I was playing Ultima Online, one of the first big online role playing games (think World of Warcraft's grandfather).
I played the hell out of that game. I had a great time, discovering the underlying narrative of the game (written by the developers and sort of placed in a nonlinear arrangement around the world). I went on lots of quests, made lots of money, got lots of weapons, learned powerful magic. Time went by, and as I ran out of things to do in the game I came to a horrifying insight: no matter how much more powerful I got, no matter what weapons I found, etc - none of it mattered in any real sense. It was just a game, and one day the server would go down and none of it would even be remembered.
To me, it was interesting enough as a diversion - but as a roleplaying game, one of the key components of the gameplay is in some sense identifying with your character. The day I realized my character was depressed with the meaninglessness of his existence, I canceled my account.
The day I realized that Real Life was not too different from the game was the day I discovered The Abyss - one day, the servers are going to go down. And then, that's it. And that vague point of discorporation into Nothing is what lies at the core of every fundamental atom of reality, every synaptic spasm of consciousness.
So, it's not a mood. It's an understanding of the transience of reality.
I think this is why Buddhism is so popular among people who have sought out and tried to understand the abyss. It's an entire school of thought predicated on the idea that nothing is real in any meaningful sense.
Of course, Buddhism advocates seeking oblivion, which is of course one response - I follow the more western model of "rage, rage against the dying of the light." Which is of course futile, but if it's one thing we know how to do in the West it's make a foolhardy last stand against insurmountable odds.
I dunno. That's all I got, sorry if it's not coherent.
Very coherent. I agree totally with your assessment of the ultimate uselessness of all our actions. I appreciate most your offering your philosophy on where to go from there. It's amazing that we don't all commit suicide. The Last Stand Against the Dying of the Light. I guess that's the "selfish gene" fighting to live. Hard wired into you and I.
I like this, Mykola, and I think it is an important point. The Abyss is a metaphor, not for the unknown, but for everything that can be known about the human condition. Even the entropy of the universe or mortality is just a metaphor for the ever more disturbing truth, the Abyss gazing into your soul, saying: You are made of the same matter, or in Shakespearean terms, you are "the stuff that dreams are made of". Depression or disillusion as a sentiment does not define the experience of The Abyss. You can, to some extent, come to terms with the implications for yourself, but it is a harsh lesson.
One good metaphor or, perhaps, manifestation of the Abyss, is the Holocaust. Staring at it we are, at first, shocked and misled to think the perpetrators were fundamentally different from you and I. Then, as we uncover the details and read the reports and hear the testimonies, it slowly dawns on us that genocide is a universal human capability. In essence, none of us knows how we would have responded to the threats and ideological peer pressure of being a German in the Third Reich. We are just privileged by time and chance to be born where we are and having grown up to more or less decent people who can argue a case based on reason and compassion on a Web 2.0 site.
I remember reading Primo Levi, If This is a Man. Primo Levi was a Holocaust survivor, and he struggled all his life with the intellectual and emotional implications of his experiences. The title says it all. He eventually took his own life, in spite of literary accomplishments far beyond the average. He saw too much, and what he could not handle was what it said about him, not all the rest of it. I think that is also at the core of Celestina's article and a number of responses: What do we end up becoming, when we pick up ourselves at the edge of the Abyss and try to go on making a living? To me that is all I have left to guide me. I need to be somehow able to look at myself in the mirror each morning, and that has to guide my choices at all times.
I think that is the one thing everyone has to figure out for himself. Like the Greeks said: "Know yourself."
Be careful when you stare into the abyss for the abyss she looks back.
Stare long enough and she will whisper to you of peace and oblivion.
The only problem of course is if there is no core meaning, order, or structure you can't understand it because your thoughts have no meaning. You are merely creating a new philosophical structure that a group of people agree with. It has no real insight, because reason is an illusion.
My definition of the Abyss is that realm that escapes our understanding. It is the realm of unknown that scares us at first, then we come to peace with it. Some see that as an end of consciousness, others the beginning.
I'm big on incarnation. I think it's great to talk about what we believe, but what matters is what we do. I like to judge a philosophy by it's outcome. Some notes on Nihilism:
I understand that is one manifestation of the philosophy, but does anyone act on this belief or do they just hold it in their mind privately and "go with the societal flow". If an idea doesn't work in practice it has no "value".
I think the point is that what we're talking about isn't something that can be described in terms of a social or philosophical -ism - it's rather the height of individuality. That we can all sorta describe it well enough that others can understand it speaks, I suppose, to the universality of the experience - but it's completely and utterly distinct, in its intrinsic form, from any sort of philosophical or social movement. Russian Nihilism may have arisen in part as a response to a shared commiseration re: this condition, but nothing in acknowledging The Abyss is inherently tied to a radical political group in late Czarist Russia.
Your point about the irrationality of discussing it is well taken. It made me think - logic is something that works within the confines of our reality. Like color or meaning, it functions within a closed system. The Abyss is by definition that which exists outside of our closed system - the larger reality where there can be no meaning, there can be no logic, there can be no color even. In that sense, it makes a lot of sense to say that while we can tell where the abyss is based on the meaning-shaped hole in our reality we cannot actually say much about it.
So, yeah. It's something beyond the scope of discourse. It's almost like the anti-tao, though I suppose if I were a bit more thoughtful I would say that it's synonymous with Tao. It's simply the nothing that existed before the Word, to bring a different symbol set in - and the Nothing that will continue to exist long after the last echoes of the Word cease their reverberations.
Forgive me if the reference to Russian Nihilists seemed combatitive. They clearly moved beyond a philosophical discussion into a reactionary movement in response to the injustice of their days.
Good comments on the Abyssmal logic.
Hard to imagine. Nothing is non-existence so it is the existent non-existence beyond the edges of our reality.
The mind blowing thing is that within this infinate plane of matter our brains have come together and have the capacity to discover rules that work consistently. Are the rules an illusion? In a way, because ultimately it is our judgement that establishes them. Our minds will return to that infinate array of matter and lose their ability to reason. Dust in the wind.
I wonder if the abyss isn't the darkness of our fear, that fear that can paralyze unless we move into it and find that we survive, that indeed, there is nothing to fear. The abyss beckons us to move, to take the plunge and find the foundation beneath us, the hand that holds us when we risk. We cannot live without risk, without fear and the abyss invites us to jump.
Claus says:
This is so true; not easy to embrace, but very necessary to understand. I want to write a piece on "Heroes and Villains" (my time has been too limited on Newsvine lately) that deals with how we want a simplistic view of heroes as being "pure as the driven snow" and villains who are some kind of easy caracature. The fact is, even heroes can have some dark shadows in their lives, and even villains may have some characteristics that are startlingly similar to...us.
Matthew B says:
It is appropriate to quote "Dust in the Wind" when discussing nihilsm. Kerry Livgren, the principal lyricist for the band Kansas who wrote the classic song "Dust in the Wind" was greatly impressed with the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche and the notion that all of our best efforts were ultimately in vain and passing away. Less than two years after writing the song, Livgren's quest for truth and hope led him into an exploration of Scripture on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. A radical and dramatic spiritual experience ensued, which Livgren continues to explore and write about to this day. One interesting account of this is found in Livgren's book Seeds of Change and on his website.
To me the abyss is as mundane as the holocaust, [or vise versa]
The only defense from either is listening to your own inner voice rather than becoming a sociological parrot.
Your kids joy, strangers joy, the ability to resonate positively, these are all things that make your journey your own and the ripples you create your own.
There is a relativism regarding meaninglessness, surf that while laughing and/or creating laughter or be consumed. They are my choices anyway.
You're the best winsome...
We all know it's not easy but those of us who immediately see worth in each other at least try.
Thanks Forrest.
I have a renewed appreciation for you Winsome Cowboy.
The fact that it's renewed shows my inconsistancy as regards living up to my principles. I have a weak spot for white knight jugularizing. but hey, even saints need hobbies right?
Bold move, Celestina. I hope some people out there will know what you are talking about. For what it's worth, I think there are a few things in life that will help sustain you:
1) Philip K. Dick defined reality as "whatever does not go away, once you stop believing in it". The abyss may be a terrifyingly real aspect of reality, but there are other things that do not go away once you stop believing in them. There are such things as human solidarity at work, love and compassion, heroism in the face of danger and unselfish sacrifice. Just because you cannot scientifically measure these phenomena does not make them illusionary, and just because they are constantly countered and challenged by cruelty, crime, cowardize and contempt for life, they do not become less real.
2) Nietzsche warned about gazing into the abyss. If you repeatedly confront yourself with the randomness of events, the self-serving motives of human beings and the mortality of all things, you tend to install a sense of agony and powerlessness in your psyche. I think the abyss is something to recognize, but people will be thrown there by chance, and we may do well in steering clear of it as much as possible. The edge of an abyss is not really a place to live, you know. From people living under grim circumstances, such as concentration camps, we know that those who are able to create an imaginary space in their mind based on tranquil memories and hopes, are more likely to survive.
3) Blake said that "the road of excess leads to the path of wisdom". I think when we are shocked by reality we tend to narrow our choices. We realize that we may have an abundance of opportunities, and these may present themselves around every corner, but enjoying freedom may be based more on the ability to master options and make deliberate choices and appreciate the value of each, rather than assessing the totality of existence. What I mean is: Nobody can have it all. We are defined by what we choose to do and who we choose to get involved with, and subsequently also what we choose is not a part of our lives. Trend-spotters and futurologists talk about a sub-current, Simple Living.
I'm glad you ended the article on an optimistic note. People do change. Some of the people change more than others. Our set-up may to begin with favour self-serving attitudes, but in the long run I think the bruises we get from our confrontations with harsh reality teaches us one thing above all else, "no man is an island". We depend on each other. Our actions, like you state, affect all others. Others have to be our priority as much as ourselves, because if everything around us comes crashing down, our own relative sense of security or success does not really matter. It's like the Beatles said:
It's probably trite, but sudden disasters and the invasion of our happiness by all the numerous evils and accidents of this world inevitably leads us to "socialization", thinking more about how much our own happiness depend on the happiness of others.
Thanks for a highly philosophical wake-up call...
Very insightful. Disillusionment, whether voluntary or forced by chance, will strip you of most of your beliefs. The great thing about being disillusioned is that you are stripped of your illusions. The trick is to move forward from there objectively and assess the things that "are not going away even after you stop believing in them". Often we lose our ability to be objective and we are unable to "reinterpret" things that we couldn't understand before our illusions fell. The man with intellectual honesty and "simple living" will reach wisdom.
Thank you for the fantastic comment, Claus. So much in there with which I agree. This bit, though, I want to qualify a bit. I agree, of course, that the edge of the abyss is not a place to live. But at the same time, I think that once you know it is there, it is foolhardy to try to pretend you are not aware of it, if for no other reason than because it takes so little to fling us back onto it's rim. My best theory so far (and I am, of course, just trying to figure this out as I go along, like everyone) is that we must remember, honestly and without fear, it's presence, so that we remember the important lessons there. At the same time, we cannot afford to obsess about it endlessly, or we lose all motivation to act. As Brenda says above, it becomes a sort of dance.
Celestina, this is one of the better articles I've ever read on Newsvine. I've stared into the abyss more than once. A couple of times, I think I fell into it. There's an old song that says,
So, I could identify with a lot of what you had to say. As Matt and Claus point out, staring into the abyss has both negative and positive possibilities. It's fraught with danger and opportunity.
Another line I often think about is from Steve Winwood:
I have also heard it said:
The challenge is to see reality and not freak out when you do, but somehow find hope. Or, as in my case, let hope find you.
There's a lot more to think about - maybe I will say more later. For now, I will keep reading and thinking. That was really bold and beautiful, Celestina. Thanks.
Brings Eliot to mind.
*smile*
Indeed.
hemphill:
Hmmmm. I was thinking of Van Halen, but it's pretty much the same thing, No?
:^{)>
Celestina,
Always a pleasure to read your work, as deep as you can go without hurting too much. I've had to look at the Abyss recently, spent most of my life running a thousand miles an hour, bigger than life. Suddenly one wakes up weeks later and questions what has happened in life and what it means.
It does seem at times that we represent specks of a larger focus. Perhaps one day when we all live 400 years and all of the human race up until that moment will give a seemingly easy understanding of our participation in this life that we live.
Always a pleasure to read such fine work.
Forest
Hey, Forest. Thanks for the kind words. I don't know that we ever get to have an easy understanding of our lives, no matter how long we live. We humans are really good at complicating things. *smile* Hopefully, though, we will eventually get better at seeing how our actions effect others and the world around us. That would be a good start.
maybe i'm just feeling cynical today, but i've seen the abyss and, more than anything, it is a lonely place. this leads me to believe that a clear minority of people fall into the category of those who live based on what they saw there. if, one day, i decided to do a scientific study, i could count those who've been there, because when you pass them on the street, you see it as you catch their eye.
and i feel disappointed in the forecast of a subtle revolution, because thats exactly what we dont need. we need something more. the perception i have of my own consciousness tells me that we need the revolution precisely because of what i've seen. my own forecast is more violent, not because it want it to be that way, but because of how far from the abyss most people are these days, because of the kind of push they will need to move.
but your artistry hits a on critical point. the reason to see revolution in the forecast is because you've seen what cant be described. perhaps thats a better gauge of it: how one answers the question of revolution. because while you and i may disagree on the shape it takes, we both, with an almost genetic undeniability, see revolution at all.
i dont know which way it will go, but i hope to see it.
here's to being there, here's to getting out.
Yeah, I agree with you. Which is why I ran through the whole list of ways people run from it. In a sense, they are living based on what they saw there, but only if you include denial in that description. I couldn't actually guess as to what percentage of people have seen it, because most of them completely block it out. But I suspect it is much more common that one would, at first glance, believe.
Those who see it and then consciously choose to walk with that knowledge, they are very rare.
As to the shape of the revolution, I have spent much time contemplating it. It is important that it bring us out in a place that is actually better than we are now (I know this seems obvious, but really, many revolutions don't). In order for that to happen, it has to effect people on a fundamental, ideological level. That is a hard thing to pull off in a grandiose, blatant manner, though I am not going to go so far as to say it can't be done. It is certainly faster, if it can be done effectively. I agree with you that, one way or another, it is inevitable. And like you, I hope to see it.
It's true what they say - that which does not kill us makes us stronger. Personally speaking I do find my faith helps alot --- those that don't believe in God - it must be harder for them to find solace from the abyss.
As an agnostic, I can say, no, it does not.
I'd say that G-d and The Abyss forms the absolute opposites without any polarity involved, meaning: One rules out the other. One may have seen the Abyss from afar and believe in God, but no way you gaze into it and remains faithful. I would say that the most conscientious do not even remain faithful to one single absolute in this life.
Faith in God involves divine provision, an epic battle between good and evil, a source of mercy and forgiveness, divine intervention - and a bookkeeper on history who secures that the truth is told, the criminals held responsible and the noble rewarded. Most of us know... it's not exactly how this thing called life works.
The Abyss is the negation of all that. It's that simple, and that is the revelation Nietzsche hinted to in Beyond Good and Evil. It's like Lot and his family in Sodom, without the intervention of the angels. You are alone. People are vile. The only way out of the maze is dying.
I think what keeps people going in spite of it is the same as what makes believers find "solace", expect by different names and without rituals, doctrines and institutions - human compassion, human reason - and what makes believers break down in spite of faith, is also the same that makes everyone else break down. It's the dark side of the equasion, the inherent futility of all aspirations and the predictable progression of the universe towards the value zero.
One thing G-d and The Abyss has in common, though: You can't gaze upon them and live. We can toy around with the concept of disillusion, all right, but at the end of the day, if you have lost all illusions, you got no reason to wake up in the morning. So, until then we are students of The Abyss, examining it from a safe distance, perhaps developing the theology of nihilism, but incapable of grasping it.
Or once seen avoiding it at all.
Claus, that was exceptionally well put.
This is true. The only way to look upon God or the Abyss is to die... metaphorically that is. There is a scene in Band of Brothers where a private is gripped by fear. He won't engage the enemy. He only cowers in his hole. He asks a callous lieutenant how he can fight and kill with no reservation. The lieutenant says, "You are still holding on to some hope that you are going to live. Until you let go of that you'll always be afraid." Most people never let go of that. They run from it with great passion. Those that face it can "die" in a way that either makes them a slave to the Abyss or to God. We're already slaves to humanity.
TJG - 10.1 - as an agnostic then where do you find solace from the abyss? Just curious.
Interesting perspective, well written.
Another great piece.
It's about time. You haven't posted anything original for far too long.
Quit yer @!$%#in'! *grin* I was contemplating my navel. S'where all great ideas come from.
It is also a great source of lint.
Celestina's navel?
Allow me to rephrase...
It can be a great source of lint.
Lint, inspiration...you say tomato, I say tomahto...
I need a beer.
Me, too. Several, in fact.
That should be newsvine's new slogan.
-Dave
I'm drinking a beer right now.
I'm not allowed to drink beer, my doctor says it bad for me. So I'm having a martini, dry, double olive.
I've been drinking all day.
The system works.
-Dave
You know what I've always wanted to know? What the hell does "pompitous" mean?
See the Language Log. ;)
Nothing,
Depending on which source you see, he either made it up, or stole it from the lyric of a doo wop song, written by a guy who made it up.
See, this is why I love Newsvine. I go, write an article on Monday, and on Friday we all show up and compare drinks. It's beautiful.
I'm drinking scotch, by the way. Cheers, all!
Cheers to you, too.
"pompitous" , is a archaic derivative of adjective pompous, pompousness noun. From Old French pompeux ‘full of grandeur.
So he speaks of the full of grandeur of love.
I love etymology.
}~¿•{
You've already had a beer....
Nope.
What's all this about an abyss? I thought reality had a chewy marshmallow center... Damn!
LMAO, good one.
Just because there is a great, gaping nothingness eating away at the center of the universe, that does not necessarily negate the idea that reality has a marshmallow center. Last I checked, marshmallow actually has no nutritional value, no ingredients that could be considered recognizable. I suspect it's just like how people have different names for god.
I think the void is generally overestimated, considering what it is. People so often dwell on the despair, the emptiness and loneliness, but for me it represents other things, what is empty can be filled, creativity can spawn from emptiness, dreams are formed from pondering what is absent in your life, death and ultimately compassion at the realisation of fate, and desire and longing grows as well. It isn't about being optimistic, its about not being deceived. Those are human emotions that relate to the void, if you realise that, that you can empower a private sense of anarchy and therefore effloresce the despair and emptiness because it is only a part of it.
If you think this is denial or some bull like that it isn't, I am alone, sure, but you are here with me, you came from the void, and I can release you back into it. I don't think it is necessary to prove the virtue of despair, when suffering it, it is sufficient to be a private agony and ecstacy, suffice to say, I embrace a void consciousness, I call it exit consciousness.
There has hardly been a day in my life that I haven't had a fleeting thought of dying. It's good for you, to know that this is it. You only get this one chance. What I can't understand is why so many live like they have an eternity, that they will live forever?
but isn't it dying to the old, moving to the newness inherent in taking the risk, in making change, in giving up the old that we cling to with desparation.
Put's a good edge on things.
Same way I watch 30 minutes of fox news in the morning to wake me up and make me Hate.
-Dave
Redruby
Change is not dying! It is an essential part of living. When you stop changing, growing, thats when you begin to die. You know this.
*looks up from the rim*
I live here.
I thought that was you on the other side. *waving vigorously*
I sometimes think it was no coincidence that our paths crossed... more than a bit of luck in that, too. :)
It's such a wonderful thing to know you have landed in good company. *smile*
It all makes me very happy.
Move over. I'm here too.
Celestina,
How deep and layered are you? Great piece as always and once again my head hurts. You really do know how to exercise the mind :) Thanks, you psyche trainer.
You know how many levels of hell there are? Exact match for my psyche. *grin*
Thanks for the kind words, Orlando. Next time I see you, remind me I owe you a bottle of aspirin.
Excellent, thought-provoking writing (as usual!). I am afraid that many will not recognize the abyss when it is nearby. Only when the abyss jumps up and bites them hard in the ass, will they recognize the truth. I have heard that undertakers spend a great deal of time trying to remove the look of shock from the faces of some recently departed. Shock at seeing the abyss for the first time in their lives.
Fantastic piece. I would post something deeper but my legs are too used to running. And for once, what sounds like irony from me really isn't.
You are absolutely right about this. This is the bridge over the abyss or the wings that lift you over it.
Great metaphor, Eric. Running, like a bat out of hell.
I had a wonderful friend who chose to be a lifeline during my deepest descent. If you have been there, it is so important to help others when you can. Also, I want to say if you begin to experience true depression, get medical help. Stress can deplete chemicals in your brain that you need to regulate your moods. It's not your fault if you need medicine to replace those chemicals. Most of the time the medication is only temporary. Your primary physician can take care of this for you, in most cases.
Actually, if you'll permit me the conceit, I think this is what is so great about final fantasy 8. They actually made a video game about facing the abyss. In the end there's a big fight against entropy and chaos made manifest (yeah, I know, but it's fun!) and the only thing that keeps your characters from disappearing into Nothing is their faith in one another. It's very pretty.
The intensity and reality and sadness and joy and savageness of the abyss is very frightening. Which is why people run from it and blot it out with material things. But running from it and clinging to what seems safe and sunlit ends by robbing the world of all colour and life and juice. This is what the west has done, as you say Celestina. This is why we're afraid of sex and death and also why we're obsessed by them.
It is lonely and meaningless. But if you accept and embrace it you realise that we ALL experience this. And with that comes compassion and communion and purpose. And the experience of the abyss as freedom and creativity and deep love and unity. That doesn't remove the fear and loneliness and horror, but it makes it more than just bearable. It makes it joyous.
This is where I'd slightly disagree with Myk above. It's not a fight against entropy and chaos, it's a celebration of entropy and chaos. It's death which allows life. It's death which gives us the peace which makes living bearable. That doesn't mean nihilism and death-cult style obsession it means raging against the dying of the light - not in anger, but in celebration of life to it's last drop.
Djehuty, that is brilliantly put. There is something about recognizing our common experience, and our common need for community that can even transform suffering into a transcendant moment. There's nothing like suffering through something together to knit people's hearts with each other. So often here on Newsvine, I've seen a fierce ideological debate melt away when the combatants discover some commonly held experience, pain, weakness, or need.
This thread is destined to become one of those "Hall of Fame" type of discussions here that build a stronger and deeper Newsvine community. Great job, everybody, and thanks.
So you collect people on street corners and make them laugh collectively illustrating two things primarily, they are not alone and sometimes they can't help laughing.
It's a job.
Death has been my security blanket for a long time. No matter how bad things get here, they're not going to last forever. Until then however, it's a bit of a game to see how much of life's abuse I can endure. The only fear I have in relation to sex is that it won't show up ever again.
That would be a very good job.
"Therefore the crisis is unprecedented and it demands unprecedented action. To leave, to step out of that crisis, needs a timeless action, an action which is not based on idea, on system, because any action which is based on a system, on an idea, will inevitably lead to frustration. Such action merely brings us back to the abyss by a different route. As the crisis is unprecedented there must also be unprecedented action, which means that the regeneration of the individual must be instantaneous, not a process of time. It must take place now, not tomorrow; for tomorrow is a process of disintegration. If I think of transforming myself tomorrow I invite confusion, I am still within the field of destruction. Is it possible to change now? Is it possible completely to transform oneself in the immediate, in the now? I say it is..."
J.Krishnamurti
I say it is, too. But how many people want to change? Or are willing to do what is necessary to change? Or believe change is possible? I'm rather pessimistic about how many are willing, aware, and able.
When the student is ready, the teacher shows up. I believe we are all teachable and will be ready to take the step that is offered us. Awareness comes at different rhythms for each person. I can't begrudge a fellow being for not being exactly where I am. The abyss shows up for each of us in different forms and at different life experiences.
(Great piece, Celestina!)
My dearest Children ~ There is light at the end of the tunnel, all you have to do is open your eyes, hold my hand, and follow me to Vinelake. Vinelake is the perfect place to be - Gampa Ray
Oh no.
Again?
Thanks Celestina!
The abyss seems to pop into my head every little while, usually catching me unawares. It is like a sudden shift, a step sideways, and every thing and every action suddenly seems desolate and meaningless. Hollow, cold and very real. This used to scare the pants off me and that frame of mind would last for a long time... now, the shift occurs and I might think "What is the actual point to anything? Why am I bothering to do any of this?", but I recognise it and accept it and let it pass. It's not usually the traumas and crises that make me feel like this- they make me feel more alive, albeit in a terrible way! Same as the joys. It's the simple fact of living every day, I think, that sets up that change in perception, like a veil lifted.
Anyway, what gives me joy in life is interacting with other people- that's it :o)
First of all, I am not trying to lead anyone anywhere or convert them to my perspective. I present this as just my view of the abyss and how it has rewarded me throughout life. I am defining the abyss as a point in life that appears to be the end of all we hold dear or think essential to personal happiness. This could be a divorce, bankruptcy, business failure, loss in a relationship or death and maybe more.
There have been many times when I came to the abyss, looked in and became frozen in place. Other times I have turned tail and fled. Those times were before my first real experience with the abyss. I won't reveal what that first encounter involved but it was a time when I thought I had no choices left and was going to be devoured by this gaping hole in the Universe. This incident came at a time when I had become so familiar that the abyss no longer frightened me. I knew it was about but had always thought I had escaped. There came a time when I came to the abyss and couldn't run. I wasn't frozen, I wasn't crippled, but I refused to run.
I knew I was at the end of my string. I had no hope for the future. I thought life was no longer an asset and I made a decision which has helped all through the rest of my life. What I did then I have repeated each time a new virtual, figurative or potential abyss has developed in my path. My awakening has made me very satisfied with the world I live in or given me the strength and knowledge to try to change that with which I disagree. So, what did I do?
I jacked up my courage, kept my eyes open and jumped directly into that nasty, old abyss. Guess what happened. My world or my life did not end. I found that by, accepting the abyss and proceeding as if it were a worm hole to another Universe, I gained great benefit. Now, much later, I have traveled through many new Universes and have gained in each transition.
It is a little like getting back on the horse that threw you.
Celestina, you are a Jewel.
Amen amen amen oldfogey. I'm reminded of that adage: jump and the net will appear.
Thanks, Old Fogey. I have had exactly the same experience repeatedly. I was trying to think how to put it into words when I read your comment. You jump in, you slog through, and then you eventually find yourself in a new universe. In most cases, I have literally ended up in a different place doing something it had never occurred to me before that I might do. But the important thing is to screw your courage to the sticking point and keep on going. You will come out somewhere else, and for a while, life will have meaning and joy and sharing again. It seems to be the only rule. As long ago as the pre-Socratics, there were those who insisted that the only operative force for life is love. And I think that's true. If the pain of the abyss causes you to be afraid to love, then you really have nothing. There are those who, after enduring the abyss, seem to decide never to allow themselves to really care about anyone or anthing again. They may collect a lot of things, but their lives are empty. The only thing to do is to keep yourself wide open to more hurt and pain, but to keep on loving. Loving life, loving other people, loving animals, loving the world around you. This will, inevitably, lead to more loss, more pain, and more sessions in the abyss. But it also gives you moments of transcendence at times, moments when, for example, the sheer beauty of your child's smile makes the whole world around you glow with refractions of your joy. To be willing to dare to love again and to live again is the only hope. And each time I crawl out of the abyss, I find it possible to love more people, to understand and care for people I would have never, in my youth, have thought I would come to love. Warts and all. Perhaps for those who endure, it eventually becomes not "all roads lead to the abyss," but something like "wonder what new world I will find when I finally manage to crawl out this time."
Thanks for helping me focus in on what I wanted to say.
There's something here which ties into what Matthew Brennan says above, that I'd like to pick up on.
This is the essential bit, to me. The people who do this are the people who never quite accepted the abyss. We all have the abyss in our lives, if we are willing to notice. The people who push it away have it there as a ghost all their lives whispering "I'm waiting for you..."
The alternative is to realise that you are, essentially, just another part of the abyss. It owns you. Read the Heart Sutra:
This is dwelling in the abyss rather than resiling from it. The conclusion is not the ghost, whispering of nihilism, but:
This is the way through, I think. Having given up hope (Matthew that's where you and I part company) and therefore fear, then the mind is empty and you notice that what that emptiness consists of is boundless love and compassion. How could you not love those beings, part of yourself but not realising they are part of yourself? How could you not feel boundless sadness that they cling and struggle? How could you not feel overwhelming joy that they DO struggle, in spite of their fear and suffering, to be good to one another and to connect to one another?
It makes me tingle just to say this. Think about it - in spite of all the fear we each feel from apprehension of emptiness, we somehow want to connect and love and find meaning where there is none.
It's beautiful!! Heartbreaking! So wonderful.
Well and truly said.
This is beautiful. To me it represents hope; that irrational hope one feels that something better is waiting despite all evidence to the contrary.
Let me clarify. We don't give up hope in general, we just give up the illusion that we are going to live as we are forever. We realize that there is a door everyone must pass through... death. This is what helped those soldiers. They realized that they were all going to die, whether they fought or not. Once they accepted it, they could come alive. No longer restrained by fear, but they could give themselves to love.
A good friend of mine recently pointed out that fear is basically selfishness manifest. It is considering yourself beyond all things. As you let go of selfishness and begin to see others you become braver. They seem to go hand in hand. As you give up fear, you gain unselfishness. As you give up selfishness, you gain courage.
I didn't want to draw a lot of conclusions for folks. I was intentionally leaving things sort of hanging at... "lost hope". In the end, we each have to make our own move from the Abyss. This is something we truly do alone. We have to decide whether to live and love, or wait to die.
An' in th' meantime, we can wait ter die whilst livin' an' lovin'. An' pillagin' and plunderin'! Git yer sealegs under ye, me boys, an' take to the beaches! 'Tis National Talk Like A Pirate Day!
Let it hereby be declared that any scurvy landlubbers bringin' their filthy speak here upon me page will be keelhauled, flogged, and quizzed on th' proper spellin' of th' biggest words I can think of fer the general amusement. Ahoy!
oldfogey,
Your comment is sound advice and much appreciated. Growing up around the ocean, I like to picture the abyss as a endless body of ice-cold water that you have to force yourself to jump in and keep on stroking because sooner or later your hand will hit the other shore.
Avast ye' scurvy rascalls! I'm a'castin' for plank-walkers, all as happenin' 'cause I couldn't post me comment for 10 hours!! Ooooh Errrrr, Arrgghh!!! I be lookin' to lash a body fer tha'!
Anyways...'ere 'tis:
The fear is a fear of loss; the loss of love and the loss of whatever perceived control you have over your life and the world. The only control we have is over the choices we make in life, and a terrifying fear of loss often causes us to baulk and freeze and close ourselves up for 'protection'.
If we can see that everything meaningful in life is love (not only in the romantic sense) and true, human connection with others, then hopefully we can make choices that perpetuate and nurture that love, regardless of the fear. We must not assume that being fearful of a choice makes it the wrong choice- we can't see all contingencies, but we don't need to- that just sucks love away.
I feel like letting go of fear to love more completely is the struggle of my lifetime, and if I can trust and not fear, even for a time, I may get a glimpse of the nothingness that can make me whole.
If that were the central goal of all humans we would see the "Kingdom of Heaven" invade earth. Let it come I say.
The Abyss has an image.
I went to my first AA meeting today. It was a room full of Abyss experts. This is their mantra:
I could substitute the word alcohol with "pride" and "fear" and this is a perfect map for the journey I've been on.
Matthew...knowing it's a journey...is already wisdom; acknowledging the pride and fear, staring the abyss in the eyes...well done.
I went with a friend of mine. Alcoholism directly affects my family. It was great to hear stories. It's refreshing to be with a group of people that are ready to be fully honest about themselves.
Congratulations, Matthew. You did a brave thing.
Great job, MB.
Good luck Matthew, and keep it up.
Oh, excellent, Celestina..thanks.
No creampuff, you...
The word on my page, "torschlusspanik"...fear of all doors closing....I take comfort in that it's not fear of all doors closed.
Nirvana.
You're right. And nirvana scares the @!$%# out of me.
I did me too when I was there.
I mean what I said, in that I practise transcendentalism, and achieving a state of nirvana scared the @!$%# out of me. The conditions of knowledge and the experience of the unknowable character of the ultimate reality, which is the root source of all thought, is the fundamental reality gained through meditation, and is very scary at first. That the act of Meditation is a natural one, and effortless, this is the secret, life is a rhythm. The ones that you're conscience of are your vehicle to the others that you are not, your breathing, your heartbeat. The proper mantra is the key. If you can imagine a thought as a bubble at the bottom of a vast and deep ocean, while it is there it is beyond of the range of your conscience awareness, till it eventually rises to the surface. Now imagine there are billions of these bubbles of thought and feelings. This is a useful metaphor for the source of all thought, not just your own. A Universal sub consciousness that we all share. Now think of meditation as a method of journeying to this source. This is the abyss. Where everything and nothing exists at the same time and all possibilities begin. You're still conscience but on another level. There is no internal dialogue of thought that is always with you, yet you are more aware of all that is around you and within. This is called nirvana. this will scare the bahgeebies out of you. This is also the abyss, and until you conquer your fear of it it will always have the power to control you, because fear is the killer of all reason. sometimes, when I meditate, I just fall asleep. It's useful if you put in your mind a goal, a question, a problem that you need solved before you start. but not an essential, 20 minutes is all, twice a day. You're like a cat when it purrs. but when the purring stops, the rhythm continues, subliminally taking you deeper along other rhythms. Your internal dialogue is replaced by it, everything is light, and feeling and sound. Heightened awareness without words. More aware then ever before, still aware of everything around you. That point behind your eyes that you call self, is kind of watching it all ,,, . Hard to explain something that transcends the use of words. The real scary part is, you are not alone. If that makes any sense? I had a heart bypass recently, my doctor seems impressed in the rate I am recovering. I know it is in part due to meditation.
This will lift your spirit. Very beautiful moment. Amazing really.
Strangers pray for Youssif at Beach
Does this action have meaning? Is this more illusion or is this real?
Fantastic, inspiring piece Celestina.
So inspiring, in fact, that I went and wrote a piece that would be best described as this piece's rough, unrefined bratty little Christian step-brother. ;) If you get a chance, stop on by and take a look at The Light.
My intention is not to argue the opposite of your article, but rather to share my own view on these things, which is inspired, of course, by my Christian beliefs.
At the beginning of this discussion I left a simple comment. "I need a beer." That wasn't a joke. I then pretty much stayed away.
I've just scanned a few comments, and I think a lot of people completely missed it, and perhaps that's good thing. The abyss is not about loss. It's not about your marriage ending, losing your job or possessions.. none of that. That stuff is all just a part of life.
The abyss is the realization that nothing, none of this, none of us, matters at all. That it doesn't matter who you are, who you love, what you do. You are nothing, I am nothing, and all of this stuff around us is nothing.
And then you die.
So drink more beer.
It numbs!
-Dave
Now you got it.
Right on. That's why my religion is kindness.
Hey, me too.
Because that's the whole deal. Once you realize that the abyss exists, and it's everything and you're nothing, you gain an insight.
All there is is the ride. make it a good one, for you, and everyone around you.
Nice summation.
I have to admit that when I wrote this, I wondered how many people would know quite what I was talking about. It's been fascinating to read the responses, whether they seemed to be coming from quite the same place I was, or not. And surprising, and wonderful, to hear everyone talking and trying to come to some understanding, trying to support each other, no matter where they happen to be.
Yup. An' that be why I be goin' back t' me piratin' ways fer the evenin'. If nothin' else, we can always laugh...
Not a bad philosophy at all. And much simpler for my (at times) addled brain. I get a headache from too much of this thinking stuff.
I think it was Bill and Ted who said something like "Be cool with each other." That's still one of my favorites.
My two kids just went by doing what we call "the bedtime cha cha". It's literally when we do a mini line dance on our way to the bedrooms. I've been doing it with Zoe since she was little, now she's apparently teaching it to Jake.
That, my friends, is the meaning of life.
*big smile*
Oh yes !!
Dennis,
I have to disagree with you about the ride analogy. The ride is the distraction from what’s really important that’s is you do matter and everything and everyone matters. I talked about the abyss being an ocean for me because the ocean reminds me what a futile speck I am in the universe. But the fact that I am, means there must be a purpose. Sorry I deal with numbers all day and I don’t believe the universe is random and without purpose. I don’t know what my purpose is, but there it is, that’s the unanswerable question, right?
Orlando,
I saw your ocean analogy. The problem with that is it presupposes that you can get to the other side.
There is no other side. This is it.
Dennis,
I saw this movie Alatriste with Viggo Mortensen in it, playing a Spanish mercenary. He gets nearly mortally wounded in an ambush by a black sword-fighter, and Viggo's young apprentice - quite a prodigy with the sword himself - confronts the black dude in a duel. The younger sword-fighter is no match for the older. Having wounded and disarmed the black mercenary he approaches him, dagger drawn, and this unforgettable dialogue follows:
Then the young duellist performs the coup-de-gras. This is Catholic Spain in the Middle Ages. Respectfully he gives the other guy a chance to say his last prayer.
Your comment just reminded me of that scene. The best we can hope for is to make it to our assigned death with some level of grace and dignity, I think. But that's just my temperament, of course. Anybody can choose to make it to their death any way they prefer, but as far as the journey goes, that is our destination.
So, I agree with you, at least.
I think, too, we should spread as much grace around as possible.
You know who got this at a really early age? John Lennon. People hear/read his stuff, and think they're just lighthearted pop tunes.
Read what I wrote above, then go listen to "All You Need is Love," or "God pt.2."
Every time I lie to myself and think I've got a handle on grace and dignity I wind up tripping in public with spinach stuck to a front tooth.
Seriously, though, I think the best we can hope for is to help others make it to their assigned death with grace and dignity. My experience has been that when I'm self-centered I'm more likely to surrender to the abyss, or focus on it, hasten my appointment with it. When I'm concerned with helping someone else, not so much.
He he, every time I try to help someone I tend to be taken for a fool and end up responding with hurt, anger or frustration, temporarily losing any level of grace and dignity.
Helping people, of course, is a part of my natural mode of life, but I do not place much trust in it when comes to standing firm by the edge of the abyss. I take care of my business, s'what I do. If I can, I help, and if I am unable to, I don't lose my peace over that. It comes with having gazed into the abyss and had to answer the tough questions.
That said I do respect any choice of worldview or lifestyle, and I hope that whatever you go by will help sustain you on your journey.
Me too. I was discussing this very thing not too long ago with a wise friend of mine who is a mental health and addictions counselor. She says her job is to provide the information or show the way and then what they do with it is up to them, the results aren't up to her.
My poor mother, despite her best efforts I'm not sure I've ever possessed any level of grace or dignity. For me, as soon as I think I have some, that is the moment I don't. I'm rather jealous of people like my wise friend who exhibit dignity and grace. You appear to be one of them, along with your obvious wisdom. (I mean this in a complementary way, not a "grrrr" way.) But then again, it I doubt it would bother you if I did, another quality I lack.
Wise indeed. In the end I think it's best to have no agenda. We can help if people ask for it and never have an expecation of "success" or reciprocity. This is hard, but allows you to help, be helped, and avoid emotional anguish. Always a plus.
The older I get however, I learn that I really can't help anyone. It's a bit of an illusion. I can stand with them. I can listen, but they have to help themselves.
Dennis,
That is the weakness in my argument, the unanswerable question. I don’t know if there is another side and I have no way to prove there is. Yet, the genetic survival code in me compels me to believe there has to be something more and a purpose to all this cosmic soup we exist in. I also believe the answer is beyond my comprehension, but an answer does exist. Logic says you are right and there is no grand finish to life. Yet for me, life and existence are mutually exclusive and reality goes on. Forever the optimist...
oh, I am a big John Lennon fan. Imagine is probably my favorite song from him.
Orlando, Dennis is all right. He just wants others to pay attention. We all love him, most of the time. Dennis means more to me than any silly old Abyss.
Thanks, Jerry.
I think.
I agree, Dennis is great. I love his art and comments. Both are challenging, provoking, and food for the soul.
Is this turning into the Dennis lovefest?
If so, I'll chime in, too. I love Dennis, he's my favorite librul. He's proof they're not all idiots.
More petty inflammatory muck. This is not even a political debate, you just can't help yourself can you..
Zoilus,
I think she was joking. Except for the part about loving me, of course.
I have as a sophisticated sense of humor as anyone. Replace the word "librul, liberal" with any other group, perhaps, "Conservative", "Blacks" or "Women" And see how funny they think it is.
Oh, lighten up, man.
We moonbats are noting without our humor.
Of course!
:0)
I recently read a fascinating book by Allen Shawn (Actor, Wallace Shawn's brother). "Wish I Could Be There: Notes from a Phobic Life" describes Shawn's endeavour to understand his agoraphobia from religious, psychological, philosophical and biological viewpoints. Since many of those have been taken up in the long comments, I wanted to take a stab at the biological one.
Darwin ascribed our behaviors to primitive survival mechanisms that still reside in our reptilian brains. So, the feelings or emotions that emerge when we "face the abyss", could likely link back to an ancestral warning that it's un-safe to be alone in the dark, in large, open spaces, in un-explored caves, or at the edge of a deep chasm, for example. Through time, humans have mystified these feelings, placed spiritual connotations onto them, intellectualized them, and used them to justify certain actions or inactions.
It's in all of us...we all have that primitive brain still attached. What causes some of us to be drawn to it again, and again even when we no longer face these dangers, while others seem to lead a blithe existence, unaware that it lurks?
Oscar Ichazo (he's been Wiki'd), a Chilian psychologist and follower of Sufism, created a method of identifying and characterizing "ego-types", called the Enneagram. His detailed descriptions and analysis of each type clearly shows that some of us are more driven to exploring our inner landscape vs. other aspects of the universe. His ego typing even identifies those among us who may have the most difficult time coming out of that abyss once they begin the exploration.
Personally...I think there's great beauty and wisdom to be found in the abyss...but what was that old Kenny Roger's song? "You got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, Know when to walk away and know when to run."
autumnhaiku:
Pretty much everyone in my family read that book and loved and recommended it to me but I haven't read it yet.
I'm afraid to.
:^{)>
Where does this fit in?
step 4 from memory. :)
Self consciousness brings with it terrors. Your quote is one stab at an answer to that.
It's an opposing worldview. Yes there is an Abyss, but there is also Another. The end is not nothing, but realization of the fact that we've been under the care of an invisible Shepherd. The meaning was real. I am not alone.
I don't think it's an opposing worldview. As I said on Noah's thread the great mystics from the Christian tradition, including don't forget that guy in the garden at Gesthemane, had their dark night of the soul. The invisible shepherd is compatible with the meaninglessness found in that place. I know it seems logical or easy or comforting to think that the hope that came from that darkness meant that it wasn't truly dark, but I think that it was/is, and that's why the hope is real. To me (and that's me, right, you go with what works for you) the thing John of the Cross was saying is that the complete abandonment of ego, of hope, of possibility, of meaning is the place from which grace arises. To me - and I'm not a Christian - holding onto even belief in God is a crutch that prevents you from fully reaching that place.
I'm pointing this out not to say you're wrong but to highlight where I think you and Celestina differ. There's quite literally no correct and incorrect in this stuff - it's outside the "Gödel's limit" of decidability by the language/thought systems we use to make truth/untruth. What there is, beyond true and false, is experience. And the experience we're talking is not that of the senses but of the whole being. It has a reality far beyond meaning.
mushin no shin
"Existence knows only one tense – the present. It neither knows the past, because it is no more, nor does it know the future, because it is not yet. But the mind is always concerned either with the past or with the future, never with the present. Do you see?
Existence is only in the present. Mind is never in the present. In fact, the moment you are in the present, there is no mind in you, there is great silence. The whole sky of your inner being is without thoughts, without clouds. I call this the state of no-mind.
Only in this state of no-mind do you meet existence. And that meeting is the ultimate ecstasy...."
From Bondage to Freedom - Osho
O the mind, mind has mountains; cliffs of fall
Frightful, sheer, no-man-fathomed. Hold them cheap
May who ne’er hung there. Nor does long our small
Durance deal with that steep or deep. Here! Creep,
Wretch, under a comfort serves in a whirlwind; all
Life death does end and each day dies with sleep.
Have I told you lately that I love you?
OMG, I just had this vision of Celestina and Cassandra in a kitchen, making cookies and listening to the easy-listening station, singing Rod Stewart songs to each other, with flour in their hair.
Wearing overalls? Coz that's a ....
oops. Never mind ;)
Um, yes, Djehuty, in fact they WERE wearing overalls. Celestina was also wearing wings.
Flour sort of, accidentally brushed onto their faces, like with the back of their hands...?
OK. Now either you and I stop right there, Viki, or we'll have to clip this to the Open Closet. I've already embarrassed myself enough, I think...
Except, Viki how did it get to be your vision?
Okay, pal, you've got a really dirty mind. I've met both these women. My vision was perfectly innocent.
Hey I've got a thing for baking. So sue me ;)
Seems somebody started a trend. I love you, Cassandra. Glad Celestina is enamored of you also. Thanks for being here.
I love you, too, oldfogey -- and your beautiful wife. Please pass some along to Vicki. Those of us who hang around the Abyss need all the love we can collect. You are one of the sturdy foundations of NV to me.
Oh, my dearest Celestina. I love you.
I've been avoiding this thread all week, but can't do it a moment longer. And I must apologize to just about everyone above. I had to avoid most of the comment thread, too, until I've commented myself.
This is the quote that immediately came to mind at the mention of the word "abyss," as I hold these words dear to my heart, and have quoted them in my journal over and over. Indeed, these are words that helped to form the essence of who I am.
The abyss is not a place, for me. It is something that lives within me, with which I've struck a sort of deal. The abyss is a force with every ounce the power of the other forces that live within me, all of which fight for advantage, none allowing a perfect balance.
I need the abyss. I need that threat. Sometimes I need to jump, feet first, into it and wallow.
Knowing that the abyss is there, not just for me, but for everyone, allows me to sense the humanity in everyone, regardless of what they've done or what they stand for.
Recognizing the abyss, finding a way to live with the abyss and to allow its awesome power to reside within me--it's the only way for me to survive. Fighting the abyss only makes it more powerful, because I get weak in the fight.
This is a beautiful piece, Celestina. Powerful and thought-provoking. Thank you for it.
Oh... get a room.
-Dave
Gladly.
;)
You didn't let me finish.
That's where that was going.
-Dave
Well, fine. By the time you show up, we should be...
nevermind. Noneya.
Yes. Right with you, Viki.
*chuckle* Poor baby.
Viki, pass me a cigarette?
Sure, baby.
Need a light?
Viki and Celestina please behave, badly *now were is my camera*.
I took it. And you'll have to break my arm to get it back.
-Dave
I find it hard at times to mainain my positive outlook and avoid the abyss, lately I have wrapped myself up like a cocoon and have actually been more guarded than nomral. I have one person, a friend that I have let in, but even that is at arms length.
I think its easier for the world to see black, then the multitude of shades of gray, life is about moments and enjoyment and exhiliration, however, at the outskirts, there is always someone wanting to take that away, rob you completely from it.
Internally you have to be willing to see beyond the abyss, you have to see the best in everything, even tragedy, otherwise, you live in darkness.
Mel
many of us have survived, as a friend you're always welcome.